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>> Home > Forum > Any Other Questions! > 46Firefloat Mk2 paint
46Firefloat Mk2 paint
(1519 views)
Author Message
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
26th Jul 2018 17:33  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44215

Have started renovating old kit build of the 93/94 firefloat with no fittings. Can someone please help with paint colours, the Red and Black on hull are they both Matt. On the deck is the Dark Grey Matt non slip and are the roofs with the fire monitors the same. The rest of the roofs are they dark grey Matt or gloss. The side are they Matt or gloss light grey.
Also has anyone got the main dimensions on the lift davit and the tow hook.
Any other info on this build would be appreciated as am copying from two old black and white photos. The model am building is 35” long and I think 16:1 scale.

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
26th Jul 2018 18:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44225

Hi Elsrickle,
This topic has been exhaustively discussed here, with some interesting contributions from guys who served on or around these boats, and some original builders drawings.
Check out this thread.
https://model-boats.com/forum/boat-specific-chit-chat/42714?...
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
26th Jul 2018 19:08  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44227

Many thanks trying to get as near the originals as possible

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
26th Jul 2018 19:16  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44228

Go for it !👍
I doubt you'll find much better info than in that thread.
Look forward to the pics and maiden video!
Build Blog!?
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
26th Jul 2018 19:21  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44229

Looks good busy with it just now

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
27th Jul 2018 18:42  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44281

Unless described as flat, paint was more often a brighter satin than matt and rarely actual gloss. White will always have been an off white as the components of paints were such that it was not possible to get a really bright white. I know that for a fact as my grandad always made his own and until PEP in the mid 60s (Plastic Emulsion Paint) there was no such thing as brilliant or appliance white. Unfortunately getting an decent off white is not easy these days since Plastikote went acrylic and their previously excellent paints started eating themselves on recoating. I now use enamels exclusively. They are densely pigmented, flexible and modern enamels dry pretty quickly.
I am using a black enamel primer on my Crash Tender, which I will then spray with black "gloss" from the same range, which, once thinned with white spirit, will dry a little less than glossy. I still don't have a matt brick red for the undersides, but it can be made matt-ish with a careful rub down with 1000 grit wet and dry used wet and soapy, but be careful not to sand through, so very lightly does it, even 1000 grit can cut well when new.
Decks were said to be Cerrux Light Deck Grey, anti-slip, which means a textured surface. That would be darker looking due to the surface texture's way with the light. The cabin sides were described as "smooth", i.e. same as the decks but not anti-slip. The roofs? Well, on Vosper's drawing "white" is crossed through and "Grey" written in. But, some pics do look white, the best pics look darker by a whisker than the sides and the roofs are clearly textured as they show evidence, as do the decks, of filth which will sit in the texture. You choose. NOBODY has yet given us chapter and verse. The fact is, an already very handsome boat looks so very pretty with white roofs. But they too should be off white if you can get it!

Good luck. Fittings, btw can be had from SLEC in Watton in white metal. Basically the old Yeoman fittings, masters now owned by IP Engineering who bought them to cast when they owned Vintage Model Boat Company. Now they've sold that to SLEC, but I don't think SLEC have white metal casting facilities, so probably cast by Ivor still. I have just had a set for my birthday and they're excellent. They do need careful cleaning up as in mould lines need to be filed/scraped/sanded to a decent finish and then given good primered surface. No hook though, but it does include nav and riding lights. This site also has masts for sale in plastic, but I made my own in brass as I will the hook and davit.
I have also just had a set of crew figures cast from my patterns and they will be available soon...a driver(Helm), a boss with binoculars and a lazy slob laying around in the after cockpit. Needs a roll-up to finish his look. No idea of price yet as don't know how much rubber to mould or resin to cast for a set. Yes, 1/16th scale.
All this to finish a model I had 55 years ago! But I reckon it deserves it.

Martin

Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
27th Jul 2018 20:02  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44285

Thanks very much for all the valuable information you gave that’s my paint set up all sorted now.just this afternoon I found the SLEC website by accident and spoke to Ian on the phone, I’ve to send him a list of the parts outstanding and he will send me what he can. Am very interested in the figures you are making and would be very happy if you could send me a price for making me a set it would just finish off the model. Ian

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
27th Jul 2018 23:15  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44292

SLEC seem like a decent outfit to me. If they are happy to send you only what you're missing that's excellent. I might make the master of the davit and hook available as a white metal casting. I have a friendly caster literally round the corner to me!

I'll put news of products on here.

Happy to help.
BTW, one of our members here did a superb job on the 46" version and used a textured paint from Halfords. I've not had the inclination to follow it up yet in this damned heat, but will do as soon as it cools down a bit.

Cheers,
Martin

Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
28th Jul 2018 15:49  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44319

I’ll give the halfords textured paint a try. Just tried the non slip with common salt looked good but a bit too course. Look forward to hearing what fittings you put on line. The lift davit seems to be difficult to find was planning on making it myself if nothing found.
Ian

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
29th Jul 2018 09:01  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44333

I found that Chinese 5 spice powder worked fairly well, but getting an even coating is difficult, especially where it's always windy like here.
I shall be making the davit and hook mechanisms in brass and getting them cast.
There are none available as far as I know.

Martin

Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
29th Jul 2018 16:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44344

Spice powder worth a try . Am interested in the Davit and hook when you get some made .
Ian

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
29th Jul 2018 17:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44347

I'll let you know when I have them in production. I don't know why Yeoman, IP Engineering or now SLEC didn't/don't do them as they are every bit as important as the rest of the fittings in the kit.
I'll put news of both and my 3 man crew as soon as I have production items, up on here.

Martin

NPJ
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 140
30th Jul 2018 11:59  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44419

I am interested in this as well if you are looking to build a list!

NPJ


NPJ
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
30th Jul 2018 12:11  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44420

Keep your eyes peeled on here for any news.

Cheers,
Martin

Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
30th Jul 2018 16:39  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44436

Thanks a lot will do.
Ian

Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
6th Aug 2018 17:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44732

Next query I will be fitting a 360 deg white mast light, and is there also at the front centre of the fore cabin a small white navigation light. I think it is shown in the black and white photo of the 93 at mooring.

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
6th Aug 2018 18:25  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44735

Er!? So what's the query?? 🤓


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
6th Aug 2018 19:47  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44738

Is there a white navigation light on the centre on the fore cabin roof.

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
6th Aug 2018 19:48  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44739

One crew member modified to have separate arms to keep the caster happy,so that'll go back for moulding tomorrow. I reckon crews could be ready in a fortnight.

Cheers,
Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
6th Aug 2018 22:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44752

Not that I can see. Just a searchlight.

@Robbob, What do you think?


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 408
6th Aug 2018 22:21  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44753

Looking closer you can see a small forward facing light built into the mast support at the front of the cabin roof. It has a small vee shape on the top to hold the mast when folded down.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
6th Aug 2018 22:25  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44754

It’s there front centre of roof between spotlight and horn in front of sliding hatch have fit better in this photo


Attached Files - Click To View Large

robbob
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 80
6th Aug 2018 23:38  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44757

There is 360 degree nav light at the top of the mast, in the photo I have it appears to be enclosed in a clear dome, there is also a forward facing nav light positioned between the legs of the mast support. I may have a bit of a drawing that could confirm that, but I'll need to look on my 'pooter to find it.
Rob.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana"
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
7th Aug 2018 00:14  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44758

Many thanks, that’s the confirmation I was looking for. It just seemed unusual to me for their being two nav. lights.
Am still a newcomer to boat modelling but like to get scale things right where possible.

Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
7th Aug 2018 05:02  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44762

Thanks Colin glad you told me about the vee shape for the mast.
Will incorporate it in the light

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
7th Aug 2018 11:46  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44773

The mast top light is most likely the Anchor Light and the one on the cabin roof a running light.😎 I figured Robbob would have the gen Gen 👍


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
7th Aug 2018 17:22  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44783

Thanks for the info, explains the reason for two lights and one showing all round. Will switch accordingly.

astromorg
(Seaman)





Forum Posts: 4
7th Aug 2018 20:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44793

I would suggest that the light at the top of the mast, while appearing to show all round may actually be masked internally to give the necessary visible angle of 112.5 degs either side of dead ahead. The stern light in the transom will give the 135 deg angle to fill in all round.

The teardrop-like unit on the for'd cabin roof looks more like the style of radio direction finder used by the RAF on their aircraft - the one on top of a Wellington bomber is particularly obvious. A useful fitting for an RAF crash boat? Positioned as it is it could not give the required 225 deg beam if it was a steaming light.

Normal position for a steaming light would be halfway up the mast at about the yard position, but aside from a small unlabelled bracket on the original masthead drawing, I can find no evidence of a light ever being photo'd there. Combination masthead lights for steaming or anchor are common enough today. Perhaps that was how it was?

robbob
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 80
7th Aug 2018 21:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44800

Hi All.
I found the drawing I mentioned, if you look at the numbered items you'll see that No 72 is the navigation light and No 14 is the mast crutch.
There was never a stern light on either boat according to the drawing although one appears on the stern of No 93 in one of the 'photos but not in the other dry dock 'photo....perhaps it was part of a re-fit during it's service life ?

Also, the mast light is not numbered or described...but it is there....

I hope I've thrown some light on the subject........I'll get my coat..


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana"
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
7th Aug 2018 21:31  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44803

Hi Astromorg,
Hmm! Your assessment throws up some interesting questions!
1 If the 'teardrop' is a DF antenna what frequency band was it intended to detect? It's way too small to contain the multiple antenna elements necessary to detect, and determine the angle of incidence, of any frequency in common use at that time. I've also never seen a microwave waveguide that shape. If DF I would expect a rotating loop antenna in that era.
2 It's my conviction that the tear drop on the Vickers Wellington is a streamlined VHF antenna. Or just possibly a radar detector much later in the 'grand ruckus'.
3 Why would a Fireboat need a DF set anyway?
4 Some photos clearly show a forward facing lens (white disc) in the teardrop.
5 Such boats when tied up to a mooring buoy instead of the dock would require a 360° visible light. Hence mast-top is the favourite mounting place.
6 Visible angle is primarily a question of the lamp and lens construction and not necessarily the mounting position.
7 A stern light providing the 'fill in all round' is a contradiction of the purpose of running lights which are so constructed and mounted as to help the observer to determine which way the vessel is moving. Forward and aft lights visible 180°? red and green 90°. Which combination you can see helps indicate which way the vessel is moving; towards or away from you.
Conversely the single anchor light should be visible from any angle. It can be yellow to distinguish it from a running light. Current regulations also recommend the use of deck lights while at anchor.
8 I agree re position halfway up the mast for the forward running light, BUT, as the masts on these vessels were often folded down the permanently fixed forward running light on the cabin roof would make sense.
But then, that's only my opinion! And what do I know?😲
I only worked in communication engineering for 45 years, the last 32 of 'em in Integrated Naval Communication Systems, on all types of vessels from Fast Patrol Boats through FACs, OPVs, corvettes, frigates, conventional subs and up to Escort Aircraft Carrier.
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
astromorg
(Seaman)





Forum Posts: 4
7th Aug 2018 21:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44808

Interesting, valuable photos and drawings. More like that would be welcomed by many of us.

As it would have been illegal not to have a stern light on vessels like these, for both normal passage and also when towing, perhaps that photo without one was during build before it was fitted? No draft marks either. The photo of 93 secured at Vospers (therefore probably before acceptance) shows the stern light while the early type fire monitors also show the date of the photo was early on.

I also note one drawing shows the breach hose connectors aft of the cockpit that indicate it to be of later than original build. Similarly the cockpit roof cleats have been re-positioned athwartships rather than the original two being fore-and-aft.

Considering their short operational life, it's surprising how many detail changes were made when all the available documentary evidence is studied! You'd think that after 60+ years all the answers would be known for sure by now!

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
7th Aug 2018 22:27  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44809

New info I've never seen before. I wonder where robbob got that drawing!
The 2 photos are fascinating as they show the angle metal screwed top the corners and chines all round.

I can understand someone getting so into the details, but I have to stop myself. My natural inclination is to put everything in, but I want the model to look like it might have been given to me for my 11th Christmas, 55 years ago, so must stop short at what might have been a conscientious building effort by a proud Dad. I would, if I were a much younger chap and free to indulge, buy one of the 46" kits and do a real "number" on it, detail-wise, but I ain't. So a half decent finish is what I aim for. My main concern is finding the damned Taycol motor I rebuilt for it! I went to the drawer of early motors and it wasn't there! Panic!!
Thanks for these new items of reference, robbob.

Martin

Rookysailor
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 99
7th Aug 2018 22:29  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44810

Hi Rob, I wonder why the drawing does not show the loudhailer on the opposite side of the roof to the searchlight.🤔

Cheers, Peter

astromorg
(Seaman)





Forum Posts: 4
7th Aug 2018 22:31  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44811

Knowing v little about radio waves and antenna construction, I'm happy to accept your line. My assessment was purely on trying to identify the teardrop's purpose and matching its shape to similar units in RAF use. It was usual for ships then - merchant and military - to have a DF system and it just seems logical for a vessel with search and rescue responsibilities to have one!

Positioning of nav lights was subject to complex rules in the 1950s and still is! One thing, that I don't think has changed, is that the for'd steaming light must be mounted a significant height above the red/greenside lights. The cabin roof would not be enough!

Interesting that we both have similar lengths of experience associated with similar naval vessels. Maybe we crossed paths sometime gone!!

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
7th Aug 2018 22:45  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44812

Hi a..morg, I tend to agree re height above red/green👍
Makes the direction of movement determination easier I guess.
All ships over 500t today also carry DF, for the VHF IMM band, to determine the direction of distress calls!
Re crossing paths! Could well be, I got around a bit working with shipyards and navies around the world on integrated comms systems.
What was / is your connection?
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Elsrickle
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 25
7th Aug 2018 23:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44814

Some very interesting comments about the lights many thanks and especially to robbob for those great drawings, a big help to me and am sure many others.all information is greatly appreciated as am trying to get as near the originals as possible.

NPJ
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 140
8th Aug 2018 02:33  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44816

Well that was a rush of information.

Very helpful to other projects as well ( such as mine).

Great stuff.

NPJ


NPJ
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
8th Aug 2018 07:59  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44826

BTW Rooky,
Re 'Loudhailer' not shown on drawing-
Probably because there wasn't one there!😲
http://www.rafboats.co.uk/gallery/93ff/
In the 6th pic you can see what looks like a stern light above the pennant number.

http://www.rafboats.co.uk/gallery/94ff/

Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Rookysailor
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 99
8th Aug 2018 14:30  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44832

I see on the pictures Doug, no loudhailer. but why is there one in
the kit from VMW part 22a, any ideas.

Cheers, 😎Peter

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
8th Aug 2018 14:50  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44833

None at all Peter🤔 Ask them!
All I see is the little so called 'Navigation Horn', as in the listing from Rob.
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
astromorg
(Seaman)





Forum Posts: 4
8th Aug 2018 16:24  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44834

Going back to your query RNinMunich, something over thirty years of my life was as an engineer officer in the RN. Half in sea going appointments and the other half spent mainly directing ship support and maintenance. Great times!!

I spent a bit more time today reading up about DF systems. Loop antenna on Wikipedia was interesting. It seems to me that a simple manual DF loop would be a feasible option for the teardrop; it was certainly that on many varied aircraft at that time (inc the Wellington). Also, thinking about the size of the teardrop, it may be small for a DF loop, but comparing it to the other navigation lights, it's really too small to be one of them! I love chasing all over the net trying to find positive solutions to little mysteries!

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2307
9th Aug 2018 10:02  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/44876

Nevertheless astromorg, it is clearly listed on the yard drawing as a Navigation Light.
I had been wondering if you had worked in a shipyard😉
Cheers, Doug 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!