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>> Home > Forum > Boat Specific Chit Chat! > Crash Tender Shaft Tube Poistion
Crash Tender Shaft Tube Poistion
(3642 views)
Author Message
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
26th Aug 2017 17:11  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32378

It's been a while again since posting but cleared the shed out and there was my Crash Tender looking sorry for itself. I decided to look over and try to make a plan where I need to start. Still haven't got a real idea but thought whilst it's a she'll I should try refitting the shaft. I've got a new shaft and outer casing but was wondering how would know when it was positioned correctly as don't want to apply flue and it all be wrong. Any help and tips on how to fit a new shaft through an old hole would be great - no puns intended lol


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
26th Aug 2017 20:52  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32386

Just been looking over google about my problem of how to position my prop and came across Raboesch maintenance free props. The one I have is just a tube with the shaft running it. Is it worth investing in one of these Rabeosch props?


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
26th Aug 2017 21:43  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32388

Re "new shaft through an old hole"- 😉
Answers on a sealed postcard to ......"

Seriously though folks; Yep, can thoroughly recommend Raboesch props and shafts. Expensive but D... good. Worth it! 👍
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
26th Aug 2017 22:08  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32393

Hi Steve, When I repositioned the shafts in my destroyer I wedged them in with slivers of balsa until the alignment was right, then soaked the breakthroughs in keel and bulkheads in epoxy. When all was properly cured I did the usual cosmetic filling, sanding and repainting. Has been working a treat for over 20 years. 😊
Again re Raboesch; I am gradually replacing all my plastic and no name props with Raboesch. The quality and, above all, balancing is superior.
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
27th Aug 2017 09:29  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32397

Hi Doug, thanks for the reply quick question is there any recommended distance that the prop has to be from the rudder and similiar when the outer casing comes into through the hull for the shaft to attach to the motor?
Cheers Neil


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
27th Aug 2017 09:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32398

Hi Neil (where the heck did I get Steve from!? Sorry😲)
I don't know any hard and fast rule or formula, sure there is one that the marine architects use though.
As a guide the rudder on my 24" Sea Scout is min 1.7cm from the prop tips. See pic.
Now you've drawn my attention to it I think I'll extend the rudder shaft to bring more of it down to the prop level!!! 😉 Might be easier than lifting the prop shaft 😡
Cheers Doug 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
27th Aug 2017 22:34  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32427

Hi Doug, I've been called worse as you may imagine lol. Thanks for taking the time to post photo which has made things so much clearer as to position and distance from the rudder. Also found some photos in robbobs build blog which when you put the two together I should be able to get it right. I like the idea of packing out with balsa as I should be able to temp fix it to alignment right this time.


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
27th Aug 2017 23:09  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32430

Hi Neil, (Old (Sea) Dogs can learn😉).
My pleasure, happy to help.
Today (quite coincidentally!) I ran across a mathematical dissertation on the relationships between prop, rudder and hull (Yawn!) done by Marin Corp. for a symposium on 'Fast Mono-hulls'. Primarily naval.
Full of Froude numbers and Lord knows what. But the upshot was that the optimum distance between prop and rudder should be 0.47 x radius of prop.
So with my 30mm prop and 17mm distance I'm a 'bit' off🤔 15x0.47=7.05.
Shucks; where are my thrust washers? Need a couple more 😉
Never mind, I wanted to make a new shaft anyway, to fit the brushless upgrade mounting. Ho hum! Whatever - Have fun, Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
28th Aug 2017 09:18  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32443

Now there's a blast from my past career in the Navy I can remember froude numbers and other calculations during a damage control course. Blew my mind all I wanted was to play in the wave tanks 😂
I suppose you're not far off and it it's been working fine till now 🤣
I 've also found some end seals for my shaft that seem to be the same type as the ones fitted to Raboesch shafts but a little cheaper may give one a go at 8.00 from eBay. Will let you known how I get on
Cheers Neil


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
28th Aug 2017 09:43  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32445

Hi Doug and Neil
Fascinating details about full size props and distances. Our scaled models sail in water which is not scaled so I am not convinced the maths helps.
There are many examples of Fireboats on this site and as has often been mentioned the original Aerokits were designed when IC engines were the fashion and as a result the prop shafts were at a very acute angle to accommodate the fitting of the engine.
If you have an original kit model the easiest solution is to remove all the engine mounts and any oil soaked wood from the hull together with the prop shaft and tube.
You can then buy a suitable motor and prop and work out the best alignment. Buy a prop shaft and tube to suit the distance and adjust the slot in the keel to allow fitment. I usually make the slot big enough to allow for alignment, you can repair any gaps later. I usually tack mine in place with small dabs of superglue to hold in place, not too much as you may need to reposition. Once all aligned you can fill the gaps as Doug says with balsa. I just use Plastic Padding car body filler, but either will work. Once all is set hard you can fettle to the keel / hull shape and make good inside the hull.
Not sure which model size you have but am attaching pics of my 34" Crash tender which may help.
Happy restoration
Dave


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
28th Aug 2017 11:45  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32451

Hi Dave, forgot to mention that Marin tested the calculations and computer simulations with scale models in their 250m test tank, with good agreement. Later full size measurements in sea states 5 and 6, with variable winds and drift angles also gave good agreement.

One important point though; I misread a paragraph🤔
The actual distance prop tips to rudder leading edge was 1 prop radius!!
So for my Sea Scout with a 30 or 35mm prop my 17mm spacing is about right 😊 Most of the tests were actually to determine the rudder's lateral position relative to the prop shaft on multi-shaft designs and vertical position relative to hull and prop diameter.
Vertical position was determined as; If possible close to the hull, in the lamina flow region and 'covering the upper 47% of the prop diameter'.
In this position the effects of the drift angle in a fast turn (e.g. caused by wind at an angle to the bow and the turning of the ship itself, 'skidding') are reduced to practically zero.
If the rudder covers the lower half of the prop diameter it is affected by transverse water flow across the stern, reducing manoeuvrability and increasing rudder torque and stock loading!
So again Sea Scout is about right 😊 The Aerokits designers knew their stuff, or were just plain lucky!

For the shaft alignment I use the balsa wedges for fine adjustments then epoxy everything in place when the ammeter tells me all is OK.
Filler and cosmetic to finish off.
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
28th Aug 2017 11:56  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32453

I agree Les Rowell did know his stuff and all his models sailed well.
I do believe he designed and built from personal experience so there would have been much testing and modification before the final kits were released.
I can appreciate the tests were undertaken in test tanks but for commercial ships the aim was to make them efficient for their designed purpose. Any help is always welcome if you are building from scratch but for a model I suspect the best way is to make some assumptions and then try out in the water.
Most modern kits and plans have already done this so it is not normally a problem except for restorers and scratch builders.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
28th Aug 2017 12:05  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32454

Agreed.
But don't we also want efficiency?
Good manoeuvrability, minimum drag and longest running time from the battery! Some basic principles and guidelines are always useful, especially as you say to restorers; as this blog started.
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
28th Aug 2017 12:07  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32455

BTW; how did the convention go?
Let me know in good time when the next one is please. I'll try to arrange a trip to 'the old country' 😉
Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
28th Aug 2017 22:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32484

Well after another pointer from DaveM to remove the old engine mount I actually managed it with some effort bit after bit was removed and the four screws shown obviously explain why previous attempt failed and it was so difficult to budge. 😤😤
With the mount removed I can now see the angle of the prop shaft is to great so some more work in this area. I'm presuming that the platform left behind would be OK to try mounting my 600 can motor?
Any tips on the best angle needed and also how this would achieved? Also thinking the prop shaft A frame support needs to go as well or could I adapt it as surely these are needed??


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
28th Aug 2017 22:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32485

DaveM is there any chance of some close ups of your boats prop shaft to give me some further ideas on positioning. Internal pictures would be good also if not considered to cheeky 😁


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
29th Aug 2017 09:20  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32498

Hi Neilmc
Looking at the pics it would appear you have the larger model.
I am attaching photos of the internals of my model but don't have any better of the prop shaft.
I also have a Sea Queen which is from the same stable (Les Rowell) and at 48" nearer to you model, so am attaching pics which do show what you want a bit better.
If you need more detail please let me know.
Cheers
Dave


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Aug 2017 10:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32501

Hi Neil, here's my 'twopenn'orth' on this subject w.r.t. the brushless upgrade in my 24" Sea Scout. I'm happy with the relationship between prop and rudder so am concentrating on the motor mount and coupling now.
Pics show the motor removed and the new one, old and new mounts and new coupling. Alignment will be done with the help of an ammeter as usual. Minimum current draw = best alignment 😊
Insides have been cleaned up and sealed with Eze-Kote 1 part polyester resin. Lovely stuff, just wash out the brushes with hot water and you can use 'em again! When all is correct the 'engine compartment' will be painted with white gloss Hammerite. 2nd last pic shows old plastic prop (50mm) and new brass one (30mm) matched to the brushless.
Have fun, Greetings Doug 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
29th Aug 2017 18:20  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32526

Cheers for the photos guys I'll have a look when online with computer later on. Regarding the original hole in the hull do I just drill it or file it to achieve a more acute angle as now I've removed the old engine mount there's no way I can achieve alignment with the new motor position. I think I'll stay with my old motor as opposed to expense on a brushless as been looking and I don't think 'She that must be obeyed' would wear an 80quid spend lol, considering it's taken another year to get going again.


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
29th Aug 2017 18:23  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32527

Also regarding the Eze-kote I purchased some sanding sealer last year is this the same type of stuff Doug???


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Aug 2017 20:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32529

Hi Neil, yes, very similar. Could be regarded to as a first step before applying Eze-Kote to give it a harder, knock and almost everything else resistant surface. Hammerite then sticks to it like the proverbial to the blanket and you have a super clean 'engine compartment' dead easy to keep clean. 😊
80 quid for a brushless !!! Do you want it gold plated or what?
My Propdrive 2830 cost less than 20 knicker from Hobbyking and was delivered almost before I ordered it! Just make sure it comes from the UK or EU (still!?🤔) warehouse and not USA or Global. otherwise you might get stuck for import tax 😡

For the motor mount / shaft alignment: no one said it was easy, but Nothing's Impossible', maybe that's why I drive Toyota!!😁
back end is determined by the diameter of the prop you want to fit, which in the case of brushless motor should be roughly the same diameter as the brushless (outrunner). In my case 28mm motor and 30mm prop.
This defines how far you can lift the aft end of the shaft, leave at least 1cm between the prop tip and the hull! This reduces unwanted interaction between the vortex from the prop and the lamina flow along the hull, result; more forward thrust and better rudder effect.
(Didn't spend 30 odd years talking to shipyards for nowt😉)
If you have plan (or at least a sketch - take some measurements if you don't have one of these and make a sketch) of the keel and existing motor mount; project back from the newly determined exit point of the shaft.
Check how far forward you need to go to be able to comfortably fit the motor mount with good alignment and purchase a shaft of appropriate length. Cut a wood block to fit around the keel as the basic mount and 'fiddle' with it until your motor and mounting (e.g. the Robbe / Romarin 400 mount) aligns with the shaft line. Alignment is checked by running the motor at a fixed low speed with an ammeter showing the current it draws. Shim the motor mount up / down, and shift slowly from side to side until the current reading is a minimum. Then glue and screw everything in place quick before anything moves!
Takes almost longer to describe than to do😉
The coupling type shown in my photo is called a 'Steg' coupling here in Germany (don't know the English🤔) and available from Krick Modellbau, for various motor shaft / prop shaft diameters, here the link to their English page-
http://www.krickshop.de/?shop=krick_e
Part number for the 3.17mm (1/8") to 4.0mm version I used is 63902.
part number for the motor mount I used for my 28mm brushless is 42117.

Advantages (to me at least!) they are not as long as the traditional UJ and Cardan types, they are resilient but don't flop about like the UJ types so are much easier to fit and align. Cos they are shorter you can use 'em for mountings in confined spaces. And they don't make no noise!! 😉

One final tip (may not be so useful on hard plywood built boats!).
When I had this problem with my destroyer I sharpened the end of an 8mm alu tube (same as the shaft tube dia) and used it to bore back from the hull exit to the last bulkhead before the motor mounts. the bulkheads though were 1/4" balsa! Nice and soft man 😉
Hope this helps more than confuses, but it all worked for me!
Cheers and happy fiddling, Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
29th Aug 2017 20:28  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32530

Hi Doug, some amount of information to digest on this but I think I'm getting it some head scratching and hard work to come😁
Regarding motor replacement - love the idea of gold plated but when I take a motor, ESC and battery into the equation its about £80+. I currently have a Graupner Speed 600 7.2v motor, Ripmax Xtra Quantum ESC and a Tornado 3800mAh NiCad battery so would need to replace the lot from what I can see with limited knowledge in this area also.


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Aug 2017 20:40  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32531

Aye aye sir! Message received and understood! 👍
Go with what you have first. Don't look bad, but you have a pretty big boat there! One thing; NiCad 😡 that's a No No these days, at least swap it for a NiMh. For such a big boat and thirsty motor I would probably go for at least a 5000mAh. Aboat that size can surely carry it. Otherwise you could try a lightweight LiPo 2S = 7.4V. IF the ESC is declared as 'LiPo safe', then it shuts down when the cell voltage reaches the minimum, usually set 3.0 or 3.2 volts. A decent modern 2.4Gig RC set (e.g the Turnigy i6) will tell you the battery voltage by telemetry back to the TX display! 😉
If you ain't happy with the performance an upgrade may well cost you a candlelight dinner .... on top of the 80 quid! 😲😉😉
Let us know how it goes (the boat I mean 😁)
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
29th Aug 2017 20:50  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32532

Good advice on all points there Doug the Boss likes the single candle lit dinner as it would be cheaper than buying both clever lady.
My boat is the 34 inch version so the smaller of the two Crash Tender versions but like the suggestion of changing battery as when I actually get to sailing it wouldn't want wet feet straight away😜


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Aug 2017 21:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32533

Hi Neil, Freut mich! As they say around here. (Glad about that!)
Clever lady! Greetings to the Boss 😊
BTW; I added some extra comments about the battery, possible LiPo, lighter weight would provide even more capacity and longer running times!
Whatever you do have fun with it, and enjoy the dinner 👍😉
All the very best, Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Aug 2017 21:16  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32534

Sorry Neil, when I wrote all the blurb above about motor mounts I didn't know you had a 600 brushed. Then you would need the 600/700/800 version of the motor mount I described. Don't know the part number but I've seen it on the Krick site. http://www.krickshop.de/?shop=krick_e
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
29th Aug 2017 22:12  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32538

Hi Neil
Just seen your post re a 34" Crash Tender. The pic you posted looked like the bigger version.
Your model is the same as mine as per the earlier pics.
This is a small (by my standards anyway) model and works best with a light power train set up.
I have a small 22xx brushless with a 30amp car ESC and 11.1v LiPo resulting in a very light model that positively leaps onto the plane.
The 600 setup you have should work well but at the cost of a heavy overall weight. It is a very power hungry motor and if you overload it with too big a prop you will be able to smell the motor cooking on the lake, don't ask how I know!
Regarding the hole, yes drill holes and file the slot to suit the angle. If you get a piece of dowel slightly smaller than the prop shaft you can wrap some coarse sandpaper round the dowel and use it to file the slot. Fit the prop/shaft/prop/coupler and motor and tack the propshaft in place with a couple of dabs of superglue. When set check that all is square and aligned and fill the gaps between shaft and hull with slivers of balsa and E$poxy glue. I use Plastic padding bu8t either will do. When dry sand smooth to shape.
You may already have a mount for the 600 motor but SHG sell suitable mounts.
You can easily convert to brushless and LiPos in the future. I agree the initial cost is high as you will need Charger, motor, ESC and Lipo battery but there are good cheap motor and ESC combinations that won't cost as much as you are expecting and you can use NiMh (NiCads are no longer used) batteries to avoid the extra cost of LiPo and charger.
Happy building
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
29th Aug 2017 22:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32541

Thanks both Doug and Dave

I do have a couple of different mounts which were purchased to try and get round my sticky motor which initially proved to the glue holding the shaft had failed causing vibration and the old diesel mount causing misalignment. I have just recently even purchased a plastic type mount like the one you have Doug😉

Should have removed the mount when you suggested it a year ago Dave but a little scared now I can start a fresh. Now thats done and new lease of life should see me busy at the weekend. Little concerned on the hungry and smelly motor but like the idea of a Lipo with Tamiya connector will have a look for those later.

Was a little worried about drilling through but like the idea of dowel and sand paper nice and easy I think until I get bored and then probably resort to the drill lol.

Thanks for all the advice and the confidence you guys give. Ill update my year old blog with progress over the next couple of weeks.😁😁


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Aug 2017 23:16  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32544

Hi Dave, can't quite visualise how the 'couple of dabs of super glue' shall be applied in the air!😲
I use the shaped balsa wedges to achieve the alignment and THEN glue and screw everything down before it can move!
Doug
PS That might account for the misalignment I noticed in the pics you posted above!


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
30th Aug 2017 09:52  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32551

Hi Doug
My suggestion was to fit and tack the shaft in place ie not try and fill the whole joint until it was all aligned.
I prefer Plastic Padding as there is less chance of misaligning the tube, but either method works.
Not sure which pic you are referring to?
Cheers
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
30th Aug 2017 12:36  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32554

Hi Dave, Yep, agree, tacking works with a virgin shaft hole. But here we were talking about re-positioning so there are larger gaps to fill than usual. The wedges help to keep everything steady on the keel line.
In your pics 2, 3 and 5, with the blue motor, looks like there is a slight 'tilt' of the motor to port! Maybe the camera (or my vari-focals!) lied. 🤔
have a good day all, cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
30th Aug 2017 12:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32562

Yes it does but there is a cover over the shaft so you can't see the whole train. It is all square and true and needsss to be - the original motor worked loose and self destructed😭.
I just used this old photo to show the distancing so hopefully it served its purpose.
As regards the tacking I don't believe we are suggesting anything different and regardless of the age of the aperture the principle is the same.
Still no wind so will have to be the "Searcher" Customs cutter sailing
Dave


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Live long and prosper

Dave
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
3rd Sep 2017 21:48  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32707

I think I've achieved what was needed as the shaft position is less acute now but I have noticed a few more issues I think.

1. The rudder bearing tube and water pick up don't seem to be positioned correctly - separate post on this one.
2. Looking at the plans the shaft tube is about 2 inches longer than the one in the plans.

Dave M what length of boat shaft is fitted to your Crash Tender?


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
3rd Sep 2017 22:26  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32710

Oh no! I hope you haven't glued and filled it yet😡
If so you're gonna have to cut/break it out again move it forward and adjust the motor mount accordingly.
Frankly the length of Dave-M's shaft (😲) is irrelevant. That depends on where he wanted to mount the motor and the length of the coupling he used. What you should have done is-
1 Check the length on the plan before you ordered,
2 Check alignment and position of the prop end relative to rudder etc BEFORE fixing it permanently.
Back to the drawing / hacking board 🤔
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
3rd Sep 2017 22:36  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32712

No luckily I was using the pick up tube as a reference point to show in the photo what had been achieved from yours and Dave's advice 😁
I haven't even contemplated making it permanent yet as the motor now needs support alignment etc. To be honest it's all a little much.
The replacement shaft I purchaed was a direct replacement for original shaft so no reference was made to the plans. I was content to struggle aligning the motor and shaft with the original IC mount and then just gave up till now lol.


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
3rd Sep 2017 22:44  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32713

Good👍😉
The shift it forward of the intake pipe fix and fill it and leave it to cure!
THEN fix the motor mount!
The motor mount can always be adjusted without having to rip the hull open like for changing / moving the prop shaft. 😊 A problem I currently have with my Graf Spee😭 Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
3rd Sep 2017 22:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32715

I think you're starting to understand how much of a novice I am to this game as simple advice is good for me, as a few thousand pounds worth of pennies has just dropped for me 😂😂😂
I thought it was all done together shaft motor mount etc 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Cheers Doug I may even be able to sleep tonight now knowing the task has just become so much simpler 😉


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
3rd Sep 2017 23:01  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32717

👍 Sweet dreams zzzzzzzzzzzzzz 😊
Good night from Munich, Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
4th Sep 2017 11:32  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32720

Hi Neil
I have just been and measured my 34" Fireboat.
The shaft is 8" long. In situ it is 3/4" below the hull bottom and 3/4" above the hull inside. Inside the hull the shaft rests on the former aft of the original engine space The prop is a 30mm 3 blade brass.
My rudder is 2" in from the hull stern. The shaft is 3 1/8" inches from the hull stern.
My skeg below the hull is 1 1/4" deep as this was on the original hull I renovated. It finishes 3" from the hull stern.
If you haven't already I suggest you remove the water scoop and fill the hole with dowel and filler.
I agree with Doug, leave the rudder in place if the distances are similar to that I have given. Looking at your pic it would seem you will be able to raise the shaft and still have room. To do this you need to cut the shaft hole towards the stern so the shaft can be closer. Do make sure the shaft is in the centre and straight and not aligned to the off centre rudder. A small hole aft of the rudder on the centre line with a cocktail stick may help. The water pickup is about the right distance below the hull but needs removing.
You do need to check inside the hull to see that there is sufficient height on the prop tube to allow for alignment with the motor and base. This is just a check, the motor can be fitted and aligned later.
Looks like a nice claen hull
Cheers
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
4th Sep 2017 12:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32723

Agreed👍 I had forgotten to ask if he really needs the water scoop; i.e. for water cooling motor and/or ESC. Or for the Fire Monitor ??
If not; get rid of it!
Like the 'cocktail stick alignment aid' 👍👍
Good luck Neil, cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
4th Sep 2017 22:30  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32739

Hi Dave

Thanks for taking the time to take those measurements which has given me something to compare against which is greatly appreciated. Now for the return and more questions😁

The rudder centre is positioned at 1 3/8" but the water pick up is at 2 3/8" and more centrally positioned so I presume I should be looking at blanking off the rudder and using the water pick up as the rudder position?
Also presume on the first photo I have the correct understanding on how you took the measurements to achieve a shaft position of 3 1/8"?

On the shaft to the hull I'm at 1" so some more sanding to do at the weekend also noticed that the hole is no longer symmetrical which is were your tooth pick comes in the ensure it is fixed centrally on the hull😁😁

The outer tube for the shaft is 10" which is somewhat longer than yours 😲 and if I was to replicate your working build it is obviously wise to purchase a shorter shaft with the added benefit of providing some flexibility when fitting the motor?

Also thinking my need to purchase a new skeg as I think it may snap if it was to be re bent to fit the repositioned shaft tube?

Sorry for more questions but this has stopped me doing anything for a year as I had no idea what I was doing. Now with the guidance from you and Doug I may just get it right 👍


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
5th Sep 2017 09:37  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32752

Hi Neil
Just about to go out so short reply
Your shaft is 1 1/4" above the hull bottom, so almost 1/2" too high from the hull.
If your rudder is 1 3/8" from the stern this will be ok and I would leave it alone for now. Block up the skeg hole.
Yes 3 1/8" is the distance from the stern to my shaft.
You need to measure the distances from each sides of your hull to find the true centre and mark this on the hull. I am not convinced your shaft is truly square. It needs to be equidistant from each side.
If you open up the slot in the hull you will be able to position the shaft correctly in line and at a shallower angle. As long as there is room to fit the prop the shaft can be positioned nearer the rudder. If there is still room inside the hull to fit the coupling and motor then the longer shaft may be OK.
Sorry have to go. Back later today so please ask if you need more guidance.
Don't worry too much about making the slot too big, you can repair with filling once the shaft is correctly placed.
Cheers
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 10:36  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32758

Agree 👍 The longer shaft is an advantage cos it provides more flexibility and 'wiggle room' inside the hull for the motor mounting.

One thing puzzles me! "Skeg hole"? Do you mean the water scoop hole?
I always understood that the skeg is the extension of the keel intended to protect the screw and rudder, and in many cases is a metal extension of the keel to support the bottom end of the rudder shaft!
See attached examples of rudder skegs; Billing Fish Cutter (an inherited restoration project!), Southampton tug, U25.

Neil; what you referred to as 'the skeg' is generally known as an 'A bracket' or 'Bearing bracket'. It's purpose is to support the final shaft bearing just before the prop. On full size ships the shaft tube does not extend all the way back to the prop. It stops at the hull exit and the 'A' bracket supports the final bearing at the end of the actual drive shaft.
See final pic showing the stbd. outer shaft of my HMS Belfast cruiser.
(About to be fitted with new brass Raboesch props!)
If I were you I would not even try to bend the bracket again, and would not screw it onto the hull as it was. This is a double violation of the hull integrity and will eventually cause water to creep into the wood and start it rotting!
I would cut off the right angles and solder the legs together to form a solid unit, making sure that it fits tightly around the shaft tube!!
THEN; when the shaft tube is correctly fitted in the hull and everything is cured cut a slot to fit the bracket into the hull and epoxy it in. Fill and smooth on the outside as needed. Looks better and lasts longer 😉
Again, see the Belfast pic. Cheers Doug 😎
So ends the 17th epistle from admiral Doug😉 Hope it helps!


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
robbob
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 57
5th Sep 2017 11:17  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32765

Hi Neilmc.
You can buy ready made 'A' & 'P' frames from ModelBoatBits, great quality and not at all expensive.

A 'P' frame epoxied into the keel would do the trick.

http://www.modelboatbits.com/MAXIDRIVE-P-FRAME-4MM-1

Hope that's helpful.
Robbob


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana"
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 11:31  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32766

"Make what you can - buy what you can't" 😉


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 11:44  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32768

Hi Neil, while you're on that site get one of these shaft alignment couplings
http://www.modelboatbits.com/UNIVERSAL-ALIGNMENT-TOOL
Check the diameters of your prop shaft and motor shaft before you order.
They are a great tool for lining up the motor with the shaft.
(I make my own on the lathe😉)
Cheers


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
5th Sep 2017 12:42  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32770

Doug and Dave this is excellent information and things are becoming so much clearer and I have a plan in my head of what I need to do. This is a first for a long time 😂😂😂
I shall be shopping tonight with the hope it turns up by the weekend. I now don't want to be at work as the enthusiasm you have given is wishing the weekend closer.😉😉


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
5th Sep 2017 12:47  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32771

Hi Doug just been on modernist and saw an oiler system is it worth getting one for the shaft I have or should Invite the bullet and just go for a Raboesch shaft? Presume if shaft was changed it would still be 8mm outer tube with a 4mm shaft?


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 12:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32772

Thanks Neil Pleased to hear that 👍😊 That's what we're here for 'The bin there - dun that brigade'! I've also received excellent tips here; especially re conversions to brushless and various modern materials and sources!
Don't wish your life away though! It's short enough - but can fully understand😉 Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 12:58  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32777

Re oiler. Yes always worth it. There's a good selection on the ModelBoatBits site and an excellent illustration of how to fit it!
Get one to fit the tube you have 😉
Fit it BEFORE you fit the tube in the hull! It's sooo much easier.
Also to clean out any residual swarf from the tube - very important!!!
I'm currently measuring up all my ships to order a batch of oilers, although I've also considered soldering tubes on myself😉
Cheers Doug 😎
BTW; don't leave the plan in your head! Jot down the steps you want to do in sequence as a reminder😉


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Midlife306
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 144
5th Sep 2017 14:21  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32781

I can 3D print shaft oilers if anyone is interested 👍
I'll post some pics when I get home from work
Cheers
Wayne

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 14:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32782

Hi Wayne, good to hear👍 'Well done that man! Give the man a Scooby doll!" 😁
OR; can you send me the stl file? Would make a great (and useful😊) first project for my 3d printer 😉
If affirmative I'll PM my mail address.
Muchas gracias Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
5th Sep 2017 19:03  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32799

Hi Neil
Sorry was in a rush this morning so misnamed the water scoop hole as the skeg.
As regards the skeg you don't need it. Just fit the propshaft and then fill below with a fillet of wood as used in the original Aerokit models and mine.
An oiler is useful but your shaft doesn't have one and for a novice they can be difficult to fit. Like Doug I solder mine.
I see my friend Steve at Model Boat Bits stocks easy fit oilers and they would be fine if they are the right size for your propshaft. If you do get one make sure you remove the propshaft before drilling the tube and get all the swarf out afterwards.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
marky
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 173
5th Sep 2017 20:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32802

Wayne as you are the grand master of 3d printing I don't think there's much you cant print

neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
5th Sep 2017 20:22  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32804

Cheers Doug just jotted down what I need to do good idea as will save some head scratching come the weekend 😁😁
Dave understood on skeg and oiler in think my problem is I see something and decide it's a good idea which like you hinted adds more problems which will then put me off again and another year later I'm back with more questions lol.😃😃😃


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
5th Sep 2017 20:24  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32805

Wayne would be really interested to see what these 3d prints look like a few guys at work are constantly talking about it. Ones in the process of 3d printing his house extension for planning purposes 😮😮


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
Midlife306
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 144
5th Sep 2017 20:56  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32806

Hi Doug, STL file emailed to you.

Marky, hehe I'm no master, I just load the files I find & press print lol😂

Neil, pics attached, the oiler is really simple, only takes a few mins to print.
3d printing makes it really easy to make loads of the same thing that look identical, I'm on with a side project at the moment that needs over 200 of the same part printing out, I'll save pics of that until it's nearing completion 👍
Cheers
Wayne


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Midlife306
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 144
5th Sep 2017 21:00  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32807

Ahh sod it, here's a pic of a proof of concept print I've done, printed at roughly 1/56 scale, looks good to me so I'm on with printing one at 1/16 to fit my LCM3 landing craft.
Cheers
Wayne


Attached Files - Click To View Large

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 21:07  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32808

Hi Neil, re oiler etc -
KISS! Keep It Stupid & Simple 👍😉
Plenty of time later for embellishments - WHEN the basics work!

BTW; you mentioned you had found some shaft seals - can you post the link to them please - ta in advance 😊
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 21:18  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32809

Hi Wayne, ta for the file 👍👍 Oilers look good.
You're dead right about 'loads of the same thing' that is my main interest and what prompted me to buy the beast. If I go oily then I will need 15 for my current fleet! 4 for Belfast alone. I take it I can scale it for smaller shafts on ships in the pipeline??
Tank looks great but isn't that a Tiger? Don't you need a Sherman or Matilda etc for an LCM?
You queried 'Tank steering' a little while ago - looks like you're about to learn all about it 😉
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
marky
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 173
5th Sep 2017 21:23  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32810

Wayne ,still cant guess what it a is,oops sorry that was another topic 😁😁😁

neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
5th Sep 2017 21:31  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32811

Hi Doug
This is the shaft seal I mentioned
Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391200714649


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
Midlife306
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 144
5th Sep 2017 21:33  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32812

Yes I know it should be a Sherman or Matilda, tbh they look lame in comparison to the Tiger, so it's my LCM3 & it's getting a Tiger🖕😂
Hehe Mark👏
Cheers
Wayne

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 21:50  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32813

OK, 'the spoils of war' !
Or how about a Sherman with the canvas float bag or the mine clearing flail? 😁
Now THAT would look unusual 😉 specially if you made 'em work 😁


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
5th Sep 2017 21:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32814

Thanks for the link Neil, 👍 I see it include the oiler connection.
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
6th Sep 2017 09:29  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32818

Hi Neil
That link for the seal is for a flexishaft drive. Totally different to a propshaft and proptube. Used by the fast racing fraternity.
I am not sure it would work in your setup.
Anyone used one with a solid propshaft?
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
6th Sep 2017 10:02  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32819

I was wondering that as well 🤔


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
6th Sep 2017 12:50  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32826

I did wonder last night as couldn't find one with the right dimensions. But did go shopping on modelboatbits- an oiler an universal coupling and an A frame hopefully they'll be here for weekend not that I'll need them all as lots to do as you know 😁😁😁😁


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
6th Sep 2017 13:07  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32829

'A' frame !!?? You only need a 'P' 😉
Could have recycled the old bracket.
What ever you do don't screw it to the hull, make a slot.
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
6th Sep 2017 16:09  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32838

Hi neil
Not what you require. This is a bearing and frame for a shaft that extends beyond the end of the propshaft.

The original design for an IC motor had the shaft much further from the hull, hence this support was required.

As I advised on your other post you do not need this support. Just fill the gap between the prop tube and the hull with a triangular sliver of wood to provide support. The shaft should be no more than 3/4" below the hull at the prop end.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
6th Sep 2017 16:42  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32841

I thought it was a good idea looks like I'll be sending it back 😁😁😁😁😁
Cheers Dave and Doug didn't do bad there wrong one and not even needed I thought I'd read something 🤣🤣🤣


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
pmdevlin
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 329
8th Sep 2017 00:07  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32882

Ill chip in!

Pictures tell a story. Ok, a twin shaft, but the principle is the same. Imagine the angle of shaft you have, then propeller is pushing up, get it a shallow angle, and its now pushing forward. On the 34" fireboat, largest prop you will end up with is 50mm, so cut a dics 50mm, attach to your shaft, with a flat on it so it sits on the hull, viola, here is your prop angle👍

Prop support, use a strip of brass, heat it, and bend around same diameter rod (as your outer shaft, not on the shaft as the heat could damage the bearings), clamp together and either solder or use a small nut and bolt, fit through a slot in the hull, and then bend the side over, like wings, inside the hull, and epoxy.

Paul

Fit a water pick up, its easier at the build time, than regretting it later, you don't have to use it if its not necessary


Attached Files - Click To View Large

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
8th Sep 2017 08:48  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32888

Exactly 👍👍


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
8th Sep 2017 09:52  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32896

Neil
Your model is the 34" Crash tender with one prop.
Twin prop versions as per the real craft do need the support.
On a single screw you can add a fillet of wood to fill the space and provide the support.

Paul may well have used a 50mm prop on his model but my measurements were fo a 30mm 3 blade brass prop and that works perfectly. Using a disc cut to the size of the prop is a useful tip when fitting the prop tube

For very fast models you will need a water scoop but for a novice this is an additional complication and I doubt if you will need one.

Hope you are progressing with fitting the shaft

Cheers
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
8th Sep 2017 10:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32897

Yep! KISS; Keep It Stupid & Simple!! 😎
Most of my ships have twin or more screws so I need the brackets. But not on my single screw Sea Scout or fish cutter. 😉
Only ever had a water scoop to supply a pump for a fire monitor experiment.
Mostly used to keep little boys fingers at a distance 😁
Up to now have never needed water cooling, at most a fan (ex PC processor fan) for the ESC.
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
8th Sep 2017 14:22  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32922

Hi To you all thank you for the continued advice it is making life so much easier and I do like it when the thinking is done by experts.
Paul
The disc idea is an absolute bonus and will be using it for sure as it takes away the need for continued measurements.
Dave
The water scoop is going as like you and Doug say I don't need it no working monitors for me, just a working boat would be good. I'll be using measurements given to achieve shaft positioning as at the moment I have a 2 blade prop which I think is 30mm diameter so disc to suit will be used.
Doug
I like KISS it's worked for me loads of times in the past but I can't help buying shining things 😁😁😁
The shim idea on the prop tube is a good one but may still go for a support even though not needed it shines 🤣🤣🤣🤣. But it may still go back to the filler piece as all depends on how difficult it is to fit the A frame support. I purchased one at 8mm for the tube and not 4mm for the shaft.
I'm looking forward to the weekend to get started and even set an alarm for an early start which is unusual for me. Im off to HMS Alliance as I do volunteer guiding there otherwise Id be starting now.

Will keep you all posted hopefully with good news and no more questions - well on this bit anyway 🤣🤣


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
9th Sep 2017 11:55  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32954

HMS Alliance! Aha! So you were in the 'Silent Service', a 'pig boater'!! 😁
Don't forget to add a few mm clearance to the disc!!!
SITREP with EYEBALL ASAP please 😉
Cheers Doug 😎
PS Fully understand the 'shiny' things, that's why my 'stash' is getting out of hand 😲


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 21:52  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32973

HI Doug
Oh yes I was a 'Pig Boater' for 30 years and loved every moment been there and got the t shirt lol😁😁😁😁


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 21:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32974

Well Dave M was right I wont be using this and Doug was right I bought the wrong one so it'll be going back which is bonus at £9.75😁


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
9th Sep 2017 22:07  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32977

Hi Neil,my respect for your 'silent service' 👍
I've been on a few subs, mostly old Type 206 or 209s, some very old 30+ years in Ecuador 🤔 Kept bangin' me nut 😭 6' 2" ain't built for submarining 😡
Wow 9.75 is expensive for something you can snip out of a bean can in five minutes!! Anyway get your bread back 👍
Like I said, we've bin there and dun that, so also learned much the hard way and others helped US sort out the mess😉
Pleased to see that it helps and you are progressing 😊
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 22:24  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32979

Standard Saturday Mrs Mac decided I had other things to do before being allowed out to play but I think I've got there, just need to check it's right before gluing up. OK so I lied that I wouldn't be asking more questions on this topic😁😁

The hole has been opened out enough to achieve 3/4" but the photo doesn't really show it. It took some time to achieve it as well more time than I thought, even used my dremel at one point😁. But pmdevlin's tip on using a disc was a great help.

The position of the outer tube on the hull needs a slight adjustment but nothing major and still achievable as no glue.

I did have a check fit of the motor and came across another issue as there was no way I could achieve alignment of the shaft and motor which was made easier by Doug's universal coupling idea😁. I went for removing the last remaining piece of the old motor mount (should have listened to Dave a year ago) which took about an hour as it was glued in good and proper.😤😤😤😤😤

There is some clearance on the hull from the prop so think I'll be going for a 30mm prop as suggested by Dave as to my surprise mine is 40mm diameter. Hopefully the arrangement is all good and I can use Dave's and Doug's tips on getting it secured. I still need to blank off the water pick up and fit the new rudder tube. Also I think the motor alignment will still be interesting as after removing the last bit of the old mount the motor was interfering with the bulkhead behind it so removed so it. Also will possibly need to take some out of the hull centre piece to achieve a perfect alignment.

Hopefully tomorrow will go well as will also fitting the oiler as seen on Robbob's Build Blog.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
pmdevlin
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 329
9th Sep 2017 22:28  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32980

what a rip off that is, its just a simple strip of brass, make it yourself Neil, it will also give more satisfaction when you do it yourself, and save £9!!

Not to compromise other opinions, but I think you need some sort of prop support, even single screw. If you are ham fisted like me, it can get knocked, dropped, or could hit something in the water. With no support, the "knock" can cause structural damage inside the hull, I'm always knocking my models with clumsy hands, so always "over engineer" things so they don't fall off! . Dave suggested a fillet under the prop, that would work, it doesn't have to be anything more complicated, however the real boat was this (pic) its got a support like the one you bought👍 so it depends how accurate you want to be


Attached Files - Click To View Large

pmdevlin
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 329
9th Sep 2017 22:34  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32981

that angle is way better, give yourself a bit of room for a bigger prop, say your 40mm, just incase.
For reference, here is my original set up with a brushed 700 motor, direct drive, it ran hot! then I used a gearbox, it ran cooller, but the boat was getting very heavy by now. Currently its a brushless direct drive, its been ignored for a few years now, I must get it out and use it again. Its an original Aerokits, built in 1963 by my Uncle as a straight runner ic, the ended up in my parents attic for 30 years


Attached Files - Click To View Large

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
9th Sep 2017 22:40  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32984

Yes Paul, with the boat in your picture you are right. BUT it has two props so the tubes and shafts go through the thin hull and have no other protection or support. Like in my twin and multi screw destroyer and cruiser. Also they are supporting bearings for the shaft cos the tubes stop at the hull exits.
Here, as Dave rightly pointed out, and I also showed in the pics of my Sea Scout; if the shaft tube is properly fitted in the keel it has all the support it needs and I've never seen internal damage from a 'knock' to a prop shaft!?
The fillet from tube to keel does the rest and absorbs any 'knocks'. If you want belt and braces wrap a thin brass strip around the tube just before the prop and epoxy it to the sides of the fillet plate. Which by the way is above and not below the tube!
and Neil; keep Paul well away from your models!! 😉
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 22:42  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32986

I must admit I like the idea of a prop support as it looks closer to the original. Doug suggested using the old one I have and now the angle is less I can see how this would work. All I need is some solder and torch or just simply a BA nut and bolt😁😁


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
9th Sep 2017 22:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32987

Nut and bolt ?? Ugh😡
You don't need a torch. A standard 25W mains soldering iron and 1mm cored solder (with flux in the cores!) is quite sufficient. 50W is of course quicker, but the 25 is more useful for other smaller jobs as well, like railings, masts, ladders ...
Just make sure the inside surfaces you want to join together are perfectly clean and grease free. That includes finger prints!😉
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 22:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32988

I like the layout of yours pmdevlin as its shows me that the bulkhead behind the motor isn't actually structural and I did struggle with it today ended up cutting a section out of it to ease the motor in.


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Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
pmdevlin
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 329
9th Sep 2017 22:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32989

ha, got you! check this out Doug!

Huntsman, single screw, with prop support, A simple brass strip, epoxied into the hull. Sailing around, Wham! something just under the water, fuzzy picture but the shaft bent (and its a 5mm stainless one) rudder as you see, without internal and external support, that hull would have cracked, boat could have sunk. I get what you say, but its at the build stage that you (builder) can decide what to do prior to painting etc. The twin screw pic was just for reference, I didn't have a pic of the same thing for single screw, but its each to their own, and we all have a different view on things, which is great👍


Attached Files - Click To View Large

neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 23:00  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32990

Doug no nut and bolt honest 😜😜

What is this fillet you and Dave talk about and how is it achieved as I presume its easier than fitting the support and drilling more holes in the keel?

Also now I've extended the hole I obviously exposed new wood do I need to apply sanding sealer before applying glue or just slap it one.

Do the photos look OK to start gluing??


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
9th Sep 2017 23:07  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32991

Hi Paul, Get where you're at. But Dave's fillet would have protected the hull hull even better by spreading the load instead of just directing all the force straight up that narrow bracket which concentrates it all in one place.
If your pond is that dangerous fit a full skeg!! 😉
In Neil's case I would fit the fillet above the tube and use part of his old bracket to wrap around the tube just before the prop to prevent any possible side whip. Unlikely but who knows what monster motors he may fit in the future? Like you say - a chaque un a son goût!
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
9th Sep 2017 23:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32994

Hi Neil, the pics look good 👍 You have 11/16" from keel to shaft centre so your max prop diameter is 32mm. You might squeeze a 35 in if you flat off the keel to hull behind the shaft.
The fillet is a triangular piece of ply (or hardwood if you have some scraps) fitted between the top of the tube and the hull bottom (keel plate in your case) and reaching from the end of the tube just in front of the prop to the hull exit point and completely filling (hence the name 😉) the whole gap. Min 6mm thickness would be good.
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
pmdevlin
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 329
9th Sep 2017 23:15  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32995

Neil,

the suggestions about prop support are all valid, just different takes on things. I would (if you intend to repaint the hull) sand off to key, or prime the old paint prior to installing the shaft, as it will be easier to repaint and prep. Question, sorry if I missed this, is that a new shaft with new bearings? If not get new from shg marine (they are at the Blackpool, show, and the midlands engineering show if you can get to either, I'm not sure where you are?) they are dirt cheap, called aceteal or something similar, they water lubricate, and cost about £2 each. Roll the inner shaft on a piece of glass or a mirror, this will tell you if its bent, any sign of this, get a new one, or you might have alignment and vibration issues. (glass is totally flat! there's a free tip to test you prop shafts ha ha !!👍)
same can be bought from shg, and get stainless.

Back to the support, the thing Dave mentions is a piece of wood that fits between the hull, and the shaft. The shaft is then epoxied to this, giving support, but it wont be true to original. You have the original support, so remodel this to fit your new angle. If you use any bolts etc to secure, use stainless so they don't rust. Once painted, it will be hidden, and its underneath anyway so cant be seen. It will need to be tight to the outershaft, once positioned, you could solder, as they are both brass, and either feed into the hull bend over and epoxy, or screw as per original. Here is my big fireboat, its twin, but the concept is the same, the support came into the hull, and on this example, I put a brass pin through, and epoxied it all


Attached Files - Click To View Large

pmdevlin
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 329
9th Sep 2017 23:18  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32996

Hi Doug (time for bed now!)

dont know to this day what it was, water was high, it was winter, its a big lake, no sign of something floating, but it was a right loud whack! It was in my home town of Liverpool, so maybe was a stolen car or shopping trolley dropped in the lake!😁

I was convinced it was a right off, luckily it survived!

(you had a much better description of the skeg!)

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
9th Sep 2017 23:32  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/32998

Maybe black pack-ice 😡😉 Any penguins about at the time 😁
Anyway glad you got her back more or less in one DRY piece!

Re 'as original, I'm not an aficionado of these boats but weren't they all twin screw? Cos Neil's boat with only one is not 'true' anyway so the fillet may actually make it look better than a superfluous bracket would.

Good bit of brainstorming tonight 👍 hope it helped Neil and other newbies.
Bedtime here now as well, we're an hour ahead of you lot😉
Sooo 'up the wooden stairs to Bedfordshire', nite all, yaaaawn 😎
PS like the pinning idea, will use it on my destroyer 👍


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 23:38  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33000

Paul - luckily I have a new shaft as purchased one the other as Dave said about about making sure it true before fitting due to vibration issues later on if it wasn't true.

Doug - I'm going to go for your's and Dave suggestion of fitting a fillet as to be honest it sounds easier and like Paul says its underwater so wont be seen and if it ever gets in the water wouldn't want to lose it on first trip out😁😁😁


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
9th Sep 2017 23:43  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33001

Thanks for everything tonight learning more each time I'm on here and at the moment its keeping me out of trouble😁😁😁

Paul - I was looking through my bits of paperwork today and found a letter from Peter when I joined this site 6 years ago - yes that's how I've been going on this project. The letter was to do with the actual fireboat and what colour grey was used so at one point I was quite far on. Then it all went wrong with delamination of the plywood and major misalignment issues. Peter was a great a guy and really helpful


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
10th Sep 2017 00:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33004

PS: regarding testing for 'true' on glass-
3mm float glass does bend quite significantly 🤔
That's why mirrors are best, they are usually at least 6mm (for a good'n) and maybe hardened as well. 9mm hardened is better. Ask the local glazier for an off cut! Doug (yawnnn) 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
10th Sep 2017 00:59  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33006

Hi Neil, forgot to mention, Re the 'new exposed wood': when you are sure the shaft is correctly lined up on the keel soak the hull and bulkhead breakthroughs, wedges etc with 2 part epoxy and leave in a quiet place (!) to cure. This will also seal any exposed wood. Then tidy up, fill and fettle inside and out. ---> Good to go! (As our colonial brothers 😉 say!)
Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
10th Sep 2017 09:57  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33011

Hi neil
Good to see your are progressing.
It's good to see that Paul has joined in the discussion and offered help.👍 He has a superb model at the larger scale and has been an avid supporter of Fireboats and the site since its inception.
With this small model it is important to keep the weight to a minimum and whilst sealing holes with glue and filler is OK, I would go easy with soaking the wood in epoxy, it's heavy. Far better to cover with a sheet of tissue/glass cloth and apply a thin coat spread with a plastic (credit Card size) spatula to work well into the covering.
It would be good to see a few pics of your whole model. Say two side views, a top view and a stern view. If you can weigh that would also be useful.
Might help when you need further advice on the build
Cheers
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
10th Sep 2017 10:21  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33012

Hi Dave, I was answering the query about the new shaft holes in the keel and bulkheads to finally fix the shaft. NOT 'soaking' the whole hull!!
Doug


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Wingcoax
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 11
10th Sep 2017 11:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33014

To neilmc, it's a long time since i saw the old Alliance. I was involved in the restoration of the main electrical switchboard when she was still in the water.

neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
10th Sep 2017 13:46  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33018

Wingcoax sent you a Private Message 😁


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
10th Sep 2017 13:50  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33019

Well that's her soaking in epoxy 😁😁. I've applied a thin coat to the newly exposed wood and now plugged the water pick up hole. Resized the the rudder hole to take the new rudder tube but decided not to fix just yet. Today has been hectic and not spent as much time on her as I would have liked but no point in rushing it as it's been 6 years to get to this stage 😁😁😁😁


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
10th Sep 2017 13:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33020

Dave I won't take any photos yet as it's literally just the hull. You may remeber last year you provide loads of help on my plywood delamination issue and the build blog is still there which shows me reducing her to nothing and making new superstructure side from scratch. The rest of her is in boxes 😂😂😂😂


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
10th Sep 2017 13:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33021

Wow check me out I've been promoted to Commander as well thanks guys for all your help. Does my naval pension go up as well 😊


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
Wingcoax
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 11
11th Sep 2017 10:58  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33039

To neilmc, tried to reply to your PM but got it bounced back.

neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
24th Sep 2017 22:30  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33545

Sometimes I hate work it gets in the way but I've managed to get the first fix for the prop tube at last now to leave for a while as work and courses in the way again.

I have also managed to open the hole for rudder guide and presume this needs a bit of expoxy resin to secure it in place?

The oiler is also fitted and a bit of cleaning of the inner hull to remove some of the old paint ready for sanding sealer coat after I've mounted and aligned the motor - not looking forward to that at all if past experience is anything to go by. But now the old mount is out there is more space and the prop and shaft is at a much better angle thanks to Dave and Doug😁😁


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
24th Sep 2017 22:38  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33547

Now we're getting somewhere 👍
To fix your rudder 'guide' (stock shaft) use the same technique as for the prop shaft tube. cosmetics with 2 part filler paste.
He he! It's only League Bowling (first match of new season today, I averaged 187 was happy with that😊) and GF's travel wishes that get in the way for me now 😊 Lot to be said for retirement😉
Plug on Neil, cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
24th Sep 2017 22:45  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33548

Retirement is the way ahead and I bet you're busier now than when at work. My old man is always complaining there is not enough time in the day 😁😁😁😁

I think I need to fill a little more on the right hand side as it's sunk back a little but like you say just leave to dry for a good while. I presume the cosmetics you talk about is for streamlining over the top of the epoxy and trying to sand the epoxy back?


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
24th Sep 2017 22:58  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33552

Hi Neil, your Dad's dead right!
I've come to wonder how the heck I ever found time to go to work😉 important is to know just what you want to do with your time long before you retire - and then DO IT! Like wot i am now 😁

Yep, the cosmetics are to tidy up around all the hull and bulkhead breakthroughs and blend them in to the underlying structure. With special attention to ensuring that all hull breakthroughs (prop shaft / rudder shaft etc) are thoroughly waterproofed!!
Good sealing on bulkhead breakthroughs is just(!) for 'Damage Control' to limit the spread of ingressive water in case summat nasty happens🤔 Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
29th Sep 2017 22:29  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33844

Well it looks like I mixed the epoxy wrong as its still tacky and pliable after a week indoors - back to the drawing board on this one I think. Any ideas 😭😭😭


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Sep 2017 22:47  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33850

Hi Neil, not enough hardener?
Try this: use a thick two part epoxy glue, such as UHU Fast - the 5 minute version so get a shift on! Instead of mixing 1 to 1 mix 1 part glue to 1.5 parts hardener (length of the 'worms'!)
Work it well into the holes to mix it with the original epoxy as much as possible. If you're not happy with 5 mins working time use the slow version which gives you about 90 mins fiddlin' time. NOTE: With extra hardener the working times will be shortened so try and get done in about 60 mins. You'll soon notice when you can't fiddle any more - the spatula will start to stick to the workpiece😲 Good luck, Doug 👍


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
29th Sep 2017 22:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33851

Cheers Doug the inside of the hull has set rock solid just the outside boo hoo. Can I use the new epoxy over the top of the not set epoxy or do I have to remove it with a knife?


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
29th Sep 2017 23:07  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33852

Curious that inside worked and outside didn't! Is it contaminated with something or was it a different batch?
Whatever, if some is removable with a knife and / or chisel do that.
Then work in the stiffer epoxy glue and try to work it in to the first epoxy which is still soft. You might be better of with the slow version with an extra dollop of hardener, this version (the green one in the pic) will give you more time to work the stuff in.
Good luck, don't get stuck up 😉


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
30th Sep 2017 11:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33881

Hi neil
Mixture and temp are all important. You could try gentle heat from a hairdryer to harden the resin.

Adding extra hardener to the mix is not advisable as it can lead to unpredictable results.

Epoxy is not ideal as a filler but you can make it more suitable by adding microballoons to the mix. This will result in a very hard finish which you can sand to shape.

Personally I use car body filler when fixing in prop shafts / rudder tubes etc as this can be easily faired into the hull contour and will easily take paint. I have successfully used this over epoxy joints.

Whatever you use you need to make sure the work environment is not too cold. The temperatures have dropped considerably over the last few weeks so you may need to provide a warm environment to assist the curing process.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
30th Sep 2017 19:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33910

Hi Doug - you're spot on as always it was two different batches. The inside was a 5 minute working and the outside a 30 minute working type epoxy. Thinking was longer on the outside to make sure all holes were filled which has worked sort of.

HI Dave - the day did it was lovely and warm so thought I'd be on a winner. I've tried a hair dryer on medium heat but the epoxy goes runny 😣😣. I think I'm going for the removal option a bit of 5 min type epoxy and then finish off with filler. There was still some space filler on the first attempt at epoxy but there'll be more this time.

Thanks for advice again I will get this right 🤣🤣


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1427
30th Sep 2017 21:37  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33919

Hi neil
If the resin was runny I suspect you omitted or did not mix the hardener sufficiently or the two mixes interacted with the quicker inside mix setting quicker and stopping the longer mix from setting. If you make a correct mix and cover the soft resin as suggested it should all set nicely. You could add some talc to the runny resin to thicken it up before adding the new mix.
Just a thought but possibly there are different hardeners for the slow and fast cure resins. I do know different brands don't always work together.
You are nearly there and will be soon ready to move onto the next stage.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
30th Sep 2017 22:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33920

Hi Dave, agree with the talc idea, sometimes I file a piece of busted terracotta flower pot to powder and mix that with the resin. But usually to repair Gisela's busted garden ornaments not for boat models, but no reason why not😉 But then that's why I suggested the thicker two part glue not the liquid resin for this 'fix'.
Re hardeners: as far as I know all are peroxide based but the concentration is different for the various 'speed' glues.
Frankly I would have thought that the faster mix on the inside would have accelerated the outer mix, at least at the interface between the two!
BTW: It was never suggested to use the epoxy as filler! The resin was just to soak and harden the balsa wedges and hold everything in place.
I'm sure I wrote to the effect; when fully cured THEN use filler on the outside of the hull for the cosmetics. Something lost in interpretation??
Anyway step by step Neil is reaching his goal! 👍

@ Neil; you'll need to get a shift on with the 5 min mix! 5 mins is the hard setting time, working time before it goes too stiff to move is only about 2mins!!!🤔
Cheers Doug 😎


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug
neilmc
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 79
30th Sep 2017 23:05  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33926

Hi Dave - like the talc idea which will be next weekend as my old man is down for the weekend and we are out and about all over the place. May even get a chance on an evening if Mrs Mac allows operations in the house lol. Which will allow me to move on next weekend.

Hi Doug - nothing lost in translation always intended to finish off with filler for cosmetics probably just my application and communication on here lol. I must admit that 5min stuff is bloody quick setting it is definitely PANIC it's going off NOW 😂😂😂


Learning so much more with each reply to my posts. One day I may have a boat in the water 🤔
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1121
30th Sep 2017 23:26  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/33931

Hope you didn't stick the boat to your fingers 😲
We're getting there 👍


"The brain is not intended to store facts. It is for thinking, and for knowing where to find the facts !" Albert Einstein. 😉 cheers Doug