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>> Home > Forum > Boat Specific Chit Chat! > drum sail winch questions...
drum sail winch questions...
(1536 views)
Author Message
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
9th Jun 2018 16:52  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42560

Hi there, I have a drum winch servo on my Vanity model and have just added the string to it by tying the ends of a length one to each hole in the drum, but of course that just wants to wind it all on the drum, shortening the loop. Therefore would I be right in thinking the double spool is one for main, one for jib and that you PASS a string round each, but not actually tie it? Because if you tie it, it just wraps the string round the drum and tries to drag the far drum toward it. Maybe I'm missing some basic trick here, it would be very typical of me to say or do something that I would say "daft sod" about if it were someone else!
Can anyone help me out here?

Martin

Ron
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 171
9th Jun 2018 17:11  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42561

Is this what you are trying to achieve? Or are you running a single sheet with an elastic keeping tension on the sheet line. The elastic is attached forward of the jib.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

kmbcsecretary
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 211
9th Jun 2018 17:47  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42563

Martin When using a drum winch for the sail control wire in a continues loop, it needs to be kept taut but also needs some flex in the line for when the drum is moving so a spring or bungee cord is needed for this purpose which stops the line from wrapping it's self around the drum and stops the line snagging.


Former tug nut now switched to sail because of health
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
9th Jun 2018 22:29  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42569

I have been seeing systems where the drum is on the servo and then the line appears to go round a pulley at the other end in a continuous loop. I have my servo on one plank and the other end's pulley on another, adjustable with a wing nut for distance and so tension, but I would imagine it'll still slip, so how do others do it?

Ron, I'm not sure I understand the diagram. I hadn't planned on using a single line, but that might suit my installation better as I have little space below decks.

Martin

Haverlock
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 487
10th Jun 2018 00:25  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42572

I am not a yacht guy but if I understand the twin spool winch correctly the line winds one way around the lower spool then out to a pulley then back and around the top spool. Thus line winds off one spool and on to the other. The sheets to main and jib are fastened to the running line so you can sheet in and out.

https://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/4/9/5/5/4/2/a...

https://olinroboticsailing.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/new-winc...

Those links show a couple of examples.


"that's not a bug its just an undocumented creature."

Sir Terence David John "Terry" Pratchett, OBE (28 April 1948 - 12 March 2015)
carpemoment
(Chief Petty Officer)





Forum Posts: 1
10th Jun 2018 02:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42573

I'm dealing with a similar situation. What I cannot see or figure out in any of these setups is how sheeting out the line(s) is handled. In my "real" sailboat, I'm in a constant tug-of-war with the wind trying to pull the sail and line out. When I sail my RC, the wind does not always have the force necessarily pull the line out leaving the line bunched up in and around the winch below deck.

Ron
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 171
10th Jun 2018 03:28  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42574

The Winch paper work makes various suggestions, but I chose to run a single sheet line, aft through the single block. The main is the first ring, then the jib attached forward followed by a thin elastic which provides constant tension. Use a Bowsie if needed in your set-up to get the adjustment just right.

My winch is currently being replaced as it was installed in the early 1990’s.

Hope this is helpful.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Haverlock
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 487
10th Jun 2018 03:30  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42575

if you look at the setup

https://olinroboticsailing.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/new-winc...

you can see that your winding off one drum onto the other drum presuming you have the line length correct in the first place you should never have the problem your outlining.


"that's not a bug its just an undocumented creature."

Sir Terence David John "Terry" Pratchett, OBE (28 April 1948 - 12 March 2015)
Ron
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 171
10th Jun 2018 04:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42576

If you read further about this posted design, they are using a spring system between the two separate spools of the winch. I considered this for my set-up but did not have the spring loaded winch spools.

See this:

https://www.rmgsailwinch.com.au/rmg/pages/Self-Tensioning-Dr...

Ianh
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 10
10th Jun 2018 07:28  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42577

Hi
My Naulantia had the same problem equipped with a Hitech Drum Winch. In the end due to frustration I used an arm type sail winch to control the sails. I know this is more expense but it solved a big problem


Only old in years not mind or soul.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
10th Jun 2018 10:20  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42580

Ron,
I will have to look at and read each of your generous number of sheets separately and digest what's there. What I think I just twigged when in that half asleep phase of bedtime was that of course I was expecting the one spool to empty and the other to fill WITHOUT (stupid boy, Pike) putting enough string on the full spool to empty as the empty spool was filling. What I need is, I think, a much longer length of string to start with, then wind a few turns on after tying to the ,say, lower spool, then lead it out enough for the loop to the end pulley and back, then tie off to the other spool, empty. THEN, as it goes round it will indeed, as some of you suggest above, fill top spool as it empties bottom, keeping the loop going. In this arrangement, I don't see any need for spring tension. That, I think, is only needed on the single line, (no loop or end pulley), system. This is all very good in theory, but I may be back when I've tried it. Trouble is, I still have to get batteries for the R/C gear and see if I can bind the Spektrum DX5e to the Orange Rx first. So I may be some time....
Many thanks all,

Martin

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
10th Jun 2018 10:33  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42581

I think Haverlock, you just pre-empted me!

Martin

Ianh
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 10
11th Jun 2018 14:15  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42605

Just make sure you some wind otherwise it tangles to hell!


Only old in years not mind or soul.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
11th Jun 2018 16:17  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42608

Thanks, Ian. I would only use the sail winch if there was enough puff to pull the string out, otherwise it would be rudder only.

Well, I have wound on the braided string and set it so the tension is what I think is about right.

Here's the set up, prior to installing in the boat.

The receiving pulley is on a 6mm ballrace and the whole thing is in two layers of PTFE sheet and is made of redundant printer. The brass bits below the drum are holders for the steering snakes, complete with home made wing nuts. Rmbsecretarie's recommended stumpy Hitech steering servo gets the snakes out from under the winch drum. All has to be compact as I can only just get my fingers in there, having very small hands.

Martin


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
11th Jun 2018 16:53  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42612

What's the thinking on how to attach the sheets to the main loop of string? Would a little bit of crimped brass work? Or does one have to whip a new piece of string in? One for the main, one for the jib I suppose.

Martin

kmbcsecretary
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 211
11th Jun 2018 17:46  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42613

i tend to use crimping ferrules martin


Former tug nut now switched to sail because of health
Ianh
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 10
11th Jun 2018 20:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42619

Hi
If you get near an R/C shop see if they keep Carl Goldberg Control Line Ferrules they are brass and easy to crimp.


Only old in years not mind or soul.
Haverlock
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 487
11th Jun 2018 20:18  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42620

if your going to crimp you could use these

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/yacht-setting-...

however because I would think it may be better to have the ability to change things

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss000001.pl?pag...


"that's not a bug its just an undocumented creature."

Sir Terence David John "Terry" Pratchett, OBE (28 April 1948 - 12 March 2015)
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
12th Jun 2018 13:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42627

Haverlock,
wouldn't bowsies run the risk of slipping?
I was thinking of using brass tube (although they would have to be slit first now as I have done all the knot tying I want to)!

I guess I should first find where the sail winch servo wants to centre itself, then I can mark the string and put crimps on for the rigging cord.

Thanks, folks.

Cheers,
Martin

octman
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 111
12th Jun 2018 14:17  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42628

If you are talking about a closed loop system have a look at this YouTube :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cco5IQ0bZtU

I have it on my yacht and it works very well, with no tangles any more.
If you are not discussing a closed loop system, apologies for butting in.
Chris

Haverlock
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 487
12th Jun 2018 16:23  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42630

bowsies may well slip over time BUT when your setting up they could give you some chance to adjust once you have the final position worked out a drop of cyano would fix in place.


"that's not a bug its just an undocumented creature."

Sir Terence David John "Terry" Pratchett, OBE (28 April 1948 - 12 March 2015)
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 743
12th Jun 2018 18:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42637

Hmmm, seems whatever I do I need to tie more knots to use either a ring (as per Havelock's video) or a bowsie. The knots are tied in the string on the winch drum and that was a pain to get the tension right, so I'm thinking just a piece of slit tube to get over the string, then crimp up with electrical contact pliers for a good crimp.
Still waiting for the battery pack to arrive for the RC and servos.
Then I have to bind the Orange Rx. to the Spektrum Tx....ugh! I got a biddliboop from the Tx. when I put the batteries in and turned it on and a light came on in a line of lights. Fancy, this modern stuff, innit? First time the Tx. has ever been right out of the box in about 5 years since I bought it, ostensibly for a model aircraft. But aircraft are too expensive to insure, join clubs, etc., hence my switch to yachts. Just as involving as aircraft (wind strength, direction, sail trim and all that jazz), but more interesting than watching a power boat trolling round endlessly.
At least, that's the plan

Martin

Haverlock
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 487
12th Jun 2018 18:48  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/42638

thanks for the credit but it was octman's video of a working system and looking at it I would bow to his MUCH superior knowledge!

As to your TX sorry I pass on that the only modern set I know anything about is the Taranis and that's complex enough for this old brain.


"that's not a bug its just an undocumented creature."

Sir Terence David John "Terry" Pratchett, OBE (28 April 1948 - 12 March 2015)