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>> Home > Forum > Boat Specific Chit Chat! > Launch ELAINE,
Launch ELAINE,
(1326 views)
Author Message
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
2nd Sep 2018 20:05  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45701

Picked this up from local antique shop, the shop owner said it was from a house clearance and made in the 1940's. It needs a lot of work to be done to bring it back to life, look at the photos and see if any of you can help, as I haven't seen any control system like it. I think the motor is a modified plane engine but the water jacket will have to be destroyed to find out.
So any thoughts on the challenge ahead would be good to hear. Cheers Colin.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
2nd Sep 2018 20:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45702

Here are some photos


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Donnieboy
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 45
2nd Sep 2018 20:48  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45704

Very interesting.It looks like that assembly operates the Kitchen rudder.For reverse the blades close forming a cup behind the prop.

Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
2nd Sep 2018 21:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45707

Rest of mechanism


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
2nd Sep 2018 21:19  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45709

Now the engine


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
figtree7nts
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 470
2nd Sep 2018 21:19  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45710

Hi Colin,

I have to ask! Does it work?


"Fair winds calm Seas"
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
2nd Sep 2018 21:41  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45715

So far, only checked the engine, it ran using a little diesel from my car mixed with a few drips of methanol. Throttle spring broke and the flames from the exhaust were about 4 inches long but it sounds healthy enough. As for the radio gear I'm afraid I don't have a clue.
Have managed to get the rudder nozzle gear to move using 6 volt battery, but all the connecting wires are missing. Lots of wood inside that needs attention, seems a bit too soft.
Cheers Colin.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
3rd Sep 2018 00:00  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45726

Hi Colin,
Any pics of the control gear?
Ain't seen plaited wiring and plugs and sockets like that for decades, and then only when repairing someone's ancient radio or 'HiFi'🤓
Attached pic shows working principle of the Kitchen rudder.
Primarily for steering it would seem, not sooo effective for reversing😲
Cheers, Doug 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
3rd Sep 2018 09:23  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45739

Thanks Doug, I sort of gathered this principle but had no idea how to control it. There are two motors connected via reduction gears and levers to move the two parts into the various nozzle shapes for the thrust and the whole thing rotates via one of the motors also with reduction gearbox. The pictures are the best I could do with it still in the boat as I have not figured out how to remove it without damage yet.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 10:21  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45740

Fantastic stuff, Colin. If you can get that ancient engine to run on diesel from your car plus Methanol, you could get that kitchen nozzle going! Where did you just get some methanol from? I'd say the engine is something like an old ED Competition Special or similar with a very home made water jacket and even more home made exhaust wrapper, requiring tubes to be added to the 2 stubs and led to the stern or either side.
Doug's yer man for anything lecktrickal. Is there actually anything of the original RC in there apart from that superb kitchen nozzle affair, which deserves to be preserved all on it's own.
Control will have been vestigial at best as the engine has no throttle and the nozzle arrangement will not have had any level of proportionality to it. It will, at best, have been push the button and see where the boat ended up, knowing it could, at a a pinch, be brought back to where it started. At one time all RC was like that. My own REP set was left,centre, right, centre, etc.

A wonderful throwback that must be preserved.
I wish my local junk shops had stuff like that!

Cheers,
Martin

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 10:25  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45741

BTW, that prop shaft looks like it hasn't been sealed in it's hole in the keel.
Wonderful though the kitchen nozzle is, It must cause huge drag.
Cheers,
Martin

Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
3rd Sep 2018 10:39  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45743

Well Martin, sorry to put adampner on the proceedings but she does have throttle control, but the return spring broke during the test. Have removed all except the nozzle control as I haven't figured out how to remove it without damage yet.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
3rd Sep 2018 10:59  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45744

Here are some more pictures of the throttle. The methanol was from a man who mixes his own fuel for helicopter use on the SAS camp by me.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 14:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45746

I don't call that a throttle, Colin, more a fuel regulator as in common or garden needle valve.

Martin

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 14:08  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45747

Ah, I see that little black lever now, but it seems to be a modified needle valve venturi rather than a proper throttle. Can you take the drum out?

Martin

Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
3rd Sep 2018 15:57  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45748

That little lever moves the jet up and down on the needle, you have to set the tick over with the throttle closed. And as you open the throttle the jet moves away and also allows more air flow. I had a similar setup in the late 50's on a hand line stunt plane with a third line for the throttle giving greater control during combat flying.
Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 16:03  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45749

Usually diesels don't throttle reliably as if left ticking over or even running slow they cooled to the point where they'd still run but not pick up to accelerate. Except the superb ED Super Hunter 3.5cc, which never went off a 2 stoke even when slowed, unlike all other small engines. It had a throttle in the exhaust right up next to the exhaust port and was a superbly controllable engine. Never could get hold of one.

Frankly I'm astonished you could get anything out of such a mess of an engine, but congrats and good luck with it.
Martin

Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
3rd Sep 2018 16:14  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45750

Well Martin, whoever built the water jacket didn't think it was necessary to be able to strip the motor, but I've been thinking about it and have decided to try and get the jacket off so that I can resurrect the poor wee beast, at least I'll know what engine it is. Usually the tick over was set at about 1500revs and the peek was about 2700/3000. I think that would be a tad too quick for a boat the prop would be cavitating at that speed. The boat is only 27 1/2" LOA with an 8"beam.
Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 19:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45760

Colin, it could be that the jacket is just that, a coat, a covering that allows some water to take conductive heat away. One hopes that it isn't allowing water to touch the actual motor or grot will be your future!
The way the jacket is made may give you an idea of how it operates and how best to get it apart. As it's copper, it'll only be soft soldered I would think judging by a lot of grey clag around!

Worth doing though since clearly it's a runner, despite all the muck on it. But I would invest in some proper model diesel fuel, if you can justify the cost! Then you shouldn't get those 4" flames out of the stubs!

Cheers,
Martin

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 20:03  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45763

Well, I've checked ED, DC, AM and Frog and none look anything like yours, so can't help, I'm afraid.

Cheers,
Martin

Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
3rd Sep 2018 20:17  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45766

Would it be best to use mini blow lamp or large soldering iron.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
3rd Sep 2018 20:31  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45768

Oh mini blow lamp every time, except you might find even one of those has a struggle. I'd use a Propane torch with a small burner and just lick away at it bit by bit.

Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
3rd Sep 2018 21:17  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45772

Agreed Martin,
Colin get a mini 'Gourmet' burner, then the Missus can use it to make delicious Crème Brûlée as well😁😋 Great little gadgets for such jobs. Refillable with lighter gas👍


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
3rd Sep 2018 21:34  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45775

You got the right idea, I'll have to ask if I can borrow hers. As I've only got the Iroda mini blow torch for soft soldering and silver soldering. Failing that I will have to carefully scrape the excess solder away first before desoldering. Well at least it'll keep me occupied.
Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
3rd Sep 2018 22:49  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45778

Keep you outta mischief won' it Colin! 😉
I like the fine adjustment of those burners. Found 'em great for soldering oiler pipes to brass prop tubes- WITHOUT setting fire to the boat 😲 Phew!!
Reckon it'll cope with your motor no sweat - YOU might though😁😁
Have heard Santa's coming early this year 😉
He must have a new E-Sled 😁
Now back to the fish cutter gear box!!
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
4th Sep 2018 20:32  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45802

Well today the radio specialist guys checked out the reciever for me, apparently it would need a new capacitor, a 90 volt and a 2 volt supply. Not really possible in such a small boat. So I've decided to use it for my vintage displays. The boat itself will be renovated and fitted with an electric motor, possibly a 600 as I have a couple in the spares box. Still looking for a way to remove the kitchen nozzle system. The motors that operate it are working so hopefully should be controllable by modern rc gear. Might need Dougs help designing a system I can build. BTW the Hull and cabins and deck is constructed from 1/4 Inc ply. Bit heavy but good and solid except for some of the frames are very soft and crumbly. Will start a resurrection blog soon. Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
4th Sep 2018 22:34  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45815

Ah, that sounds like a valve set-up. I had one with my REP set. A 90 Volt huge lump battery and a 22 1/2Volt battery the size of a PP3 or PP9. These days people use 10 PP3s in series in a box.

If you give vintage displays, fair enough. Bolt the engine down and run it up to assuage doubts about such things.

Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
4th Sep 2018 23:02  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45816

Hi Colin,
As discussed on the phone; 2V grid bias, 90V anode supply!
In those days they had 90V dry batteries, they musta run it 'sumow'! 😁
Don't give up so easy! Nowadays how about a 24S LiPo?
Or even Martin's 'big box' solution.
http://www.batterysupports.com/lion-lipo-nbsp-88v-nbsp-24s-c...
24V chargers / balancers won't be cheap though🤔
2V is no sweat; 2V SLA, a la Glow Plug starter.

How big is the boat an' how much weight can she carry?
My first car radio was an ancient Echo valve job, with an inductive inverter bolted under the dash to produce the 90-100v for the bottles.
Took me ages to find a way to mount it so it didn't make the whole dash hum like a swarm of bees😲
Later there was briefly a generation of 'low voltage' valves.
Soon superseded by transistors from 1948 on.
(And NO I'm not pre '48 vintage, well not quite!😉)

Looking forward to your progress reports.
Would really love to witness one of your displays.
Please keep me posted about dates.
All the best to you both, Cheers, Doug 😎
PS building a transmitter to match won't be easy. A TX on the right frequency is relatively easy, the tricky bit is the 'modulation' for the control functions! Hats off to your guy 'up the road' if he manages it! I'd really really love to see THAT!


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
onetenor
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 451
6th Sep 2018 09:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45864

Diesel and Methanol in an engine. Did you need a battery . If not you've solved a problem we've been trying to sort for years.How to run model diesels without Ether. What were the proportions and will it need a lube oil? Re the cooling jacket I'd be inclined to leave it alone. If it is over the original head👍damn the keyboard is on a go slow i'll have to unplug

onetenor
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 451
6th Sep 2018 10:30  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45866

As I was saying.etc If original head is inside it might clean up. If on the bare cylinder you may have to rebuild the jacket.The engine looks like a Sparey Maybe from a kit.👍
Re being pre 1948 I am and remember my uncle having this little radio you could carry round . There were valved porties before that but care had to be taken not to bump it in case you collapsed a valve and they were quite heavy . I think the early trannies had two 6v lantern batteries so were fairly heavy but nothing like the valve jobs. Making the old type Tx means finding the old valves which might be hard.👍

Westquay
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 792
6th Sep 2018 12:16  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45875

Aren't Sparey engines 4 strokes?

Martin

Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
6th Sep 2018 13:57  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45879

Looks like I'll have to rename her hornet, as it seems I've disturbed the nest. What's a Spare engine? That's a new one on me.
Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
6th Sep 2018 14:08  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45880

Hi Colin, this might lift some of the mystery and help you with the rebuild!😉
http://www.modelenginenews.org/sparey/five.html
Loads of 'stuff' here, happy filtering 😁
https://www.google.com/search?q=Sparey+model+engines&ie=utf-...
Cheers, Doug 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
6th Sep 2018 14:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45881

Hi John, I wouldn't attempt to replicate the old bottle TX.
Who knows now what was in it anyway?
The whole shebang sounds like a 'Homebrew' to me.
(Nice drop o T-Triple-X anybody?😁)
Once you've figured out the frequency band the RX is on making a transistorised CW TX on the same band is relatively easy.
Tricky bit will be duplicating the 'modulation', i.e. how the control functions are actually triggered at the TX 😲
@ Colin; do you have any pics of the RX? Or any 'actuators'?
Any sign of the aerial?
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
6th Sep 2018 14:42  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45882

Thanks Doug, have just had a scout round the Web, from what I can see on my engine it's more likely to be a Mills.
But without removing the water jacket and exhaust covers I've no idea.
Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
6th Sep 2018 14:57  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45883

Here are some photos of the RX and the relays. Cheers Colin.


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
6th Sep 2018 15:00  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45884

Bon chance mon ami!
Your the man for that job, I never got beyond a little Enya and a COX 047 Glow job. Still have 'em somewhere.
Was thinking of using the spare Glo plugs as ignition for firing guns or launching depth-charges on my destroyer! A little saltpetre, charcoal, eye of newt, wing of bat, 2V on the glo plug and ..... 😁 bye bye destroyer probably😲 Cheers, Doug 😎
Now back to me cutter gearbox, ya know I think it might actually work!!


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
6th Sep 2018 15:14  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45887

Thanks for the 'electricals' pics!
Definitely a triple XXX Home brew.
DCC90; would appear to be an RF double triode. Used as an RF amplifier and/or oscillator. Possibly in the UHF band.
Trying to find some decent specs on it.
If yours is dud there are still some around for a tenner or so;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DCC90-Mullard-Valve-Tube-Used-Old-S...

Must dig around in the cellar; somewhere I have a box of valves too!
(Surprise surprise! I hear you say😉)
Cheers, Doug 😎
PS Here some history and data on the bottle. Up to 40Mhz apparently.
http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa1001.htm

PPS Valve data now attached in the PDF😊


Attached Files - Click To View Large


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
6th Sep 2018 15:28  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45888

Appreciate your help, apparently only the large capacitor and 1 of the relays is suspect. The radio magicians from camp it would be possible to replace them but it would lose its value as an exhibition piece.
Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
6th Sep 2018 15:37  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45889

Agree on the vintage value (same applies to your Supermarine actually!)
I thought you wanted to try and get it all working.
I see two more bottles in that perspex box. What are those?
I'm beginning to wonder if that's the RX and the chunk with the DCC90 is the TX. The DCC90 bottle could produce 2W RF in the HF band. So 27Megs would be in for example.
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
6th Sep 2018 15:45  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45890

OK twigged it!
The 'second' bottle is the end of the capacitor, still in the box.🤔
Ciao, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
onetenor
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 451
7th Sep 2018 21:12  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45928

And what a capacitor. Big enough to have come from a washing machine of that period. Maybe it did. The whole thing looks like a lashup. Used whatever would work.I had loads of old valves but noone wanted them so dumped them. Some of them were More modern ones to replace the DCC90 but 1/3 or less the size. Those relays look like the old G.P.O. type. We got them from a Gov't surplus shop for buttons. Those were the days. Sometimes we added in an R.A.F r/f amplifier without the case. It increased the range but don't ask me now how we wired them in. There were 4 connection points on the casing which accepted a multi-plug connector secured by a threaded ring. Nice bit of kit til we got our hands on them.😁

onetenor
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 451
7th Sep 2018 23:28  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45941

Re that jacket. It may be easier to shift than you think. It looks as though there are soldered over screws round the top.If you can remove them the jacket might just prise off. The exhaust stubs just unclamp.If you can get that off you may then be able to see what motor you have. I see a likeness to one of the E.D. 1:49s👍👍 P.S. Colin can you tell me the proportions of diesel and Methanol you used please ? I'd like to try it for myself. What gave you rise to think it would work? I'm really fascinated by this. Regards John👍🤔

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2402
8th Sep 2018 00:52  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45949

Thought U were goin' to hit the hay a while ago John!? 😉
Greetings from one model fan and insomniac to another👍
BTW agree with your comments about the water jacket.
Sweat the screws out and the rest should be relatively easy.
"In this the most perfect of all possible worlds"!
Cheers All, Doug 😎
BTW: TELL me about those relays! For a year or so back in the early 70s I used to service and calibrate the radiation monitors at various nuclear research / power generation sites around England. The detectors tripped a relay via appropriate drivers, which then triggered the unit Nixie tube, etc, etc.
My job was mainly cleaning and setting the relays and doing a calibration against 'normal' background count, cosmic radiation etc.
To reassure folks; during the whole year - year and a half I never ever saw a count above background! But then - that was 46 years ago 😲


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Grant me the Serenity to accept things I can't change, - the Courage to change things that I can,
and the Wisdom to know the difference!
Colin H.
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 423
8th Sep 2018 09:11  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/45958

Good morning John, I will be trying to remove the jacket later today, so I'll post pictures and results later.
As for the fuel mix, a buddy who works on helicopters at the SAS camp was helpful in this, as the motor was covered in so much crap he suggested immersing it in diesel overnight, then blow off with air line before cranking it. He suggested that as it was a diesel it should fire up on diesel with a little help from bradex easy start, but as I don't have any he said to try a few drops of methanol, 10ml of diesel and two drops of methanol from an old eye dropper. A piece of silicone pipe was fitted to the fuel line in and a small funnel, then a piece of rubber pipe push fit on drive shafts and held in battery drill. Put the fuel in funnel and opporate the drill, and away it went.
Cheers Colin.


Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.