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>> Home > Forum > Electrical Related > Using old motors
Using old motors
(810 views)
Author Message
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
7th Apr 2017 15:57  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27305

Hi all, I'm seeing posts on internet search dated 5 years or more ago, so here goes in modern times. I have a number of lovely old motors which I want to use in my speedboat models. By speedboat models I mean exactly that. Models of actual speedboats...woodies as they're widely known. They would need to go at something like a SCALE speed of 25 - 40mph, so no acid-loving ducks here, just fastish. PLEASE don't suggest I buy modern brushless stuff. I'm just not into all that. BUT, is there any newer thinking about speed control and reversing of the old Taycols, Frogs, Basset-Lowkes and SELs? I do posses one modern motor...a speed 480 taken from an airyplane. It's all I can get in my Sea Hornet, now it has been converted to a Chris Craft Racing Runabout.
Cheers,
Martin (already winding rheostats!)

Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1145
7th Apr 2017 18:47  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27312

Hi Westquay
Look at http://taycol.tk/Reverse.html re your Taycol motors.
As regards getting 25-40mph that may not be possible with your vintage motors. In their day the Taycols were the best around but I suspect after nearly 50 years they will be showing some deterioration in the windings etc. My supermarine double special was very impressive and gave a good spark from the copper foil bushes that increased with speed. You actually oiled the brushes.
Your speed 480in a suitable light planing hull maybe if your batteries were also not heavy.
An ESC will reduce the voltage to the motor so if you just want speed perhaps a heavy duty microswitch or relay would be best
as you will not presumably want to tinker around at slow speed.
I suppose you may still be able to get a Bobs board for the ESC which will work better than a rheostat.
Radio interference is a major problem and you will need to suppress the motors and keep all receiver wires/servo wires and the aerial well away from the motor. You have not stated what rc you intend to use but unless you live in a very remote area reed and similar early radio gear will not work well in the modern rc world.
Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
7th Apr 2017 18:59  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27313

Hi Dave,
many thanks for your answer. I wanted a scale speed of 25-40mh, so much slower than the real speed of that figure. As long as they just about plane I'll be happy. I've been trying to get a Bob's board for ages. My old friend has a few in his loft. He used to make all the display models, aircraft and boats, for Bob's models.
My R/C gear at it's earliest is Mini Hex from 1971 or Digimac. I can't get the REP single channel I once had, but which was stolen. I should say that my old Crash Tender (which I really should finish some time 53 years later!) always ran a treat with it's Supermarine Special, using said REP sytem. The Basset-Lowke motor is a permanent magnet type so will probably be OK with an ESC, but I have no idea what sort to use as I don't understand them. All I read seems to suggest that they are either expensive or unreliable. And they need "programming", which totally puts me off!

I have no model boat clubs near here, so would just use the local canalised river which has both sides accessible and is rarely used by full sized boats. But at least I don't have to worry about other R/C users.

Looks like the world is much the same for old motors after all.

Cheers,
Martin

Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1145
8th Apr 2017 11:16  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27323

Hi Martin
I see from your profile you are in a rural area so you may be OK with your rc gear.
ESCs can be expensive but generally work well. You will need a brushless type and both Electronize and Mtronic should work. I suggest you look them up on the web and either send an e-mail or ring them up to see what they suggest for your motor. Both allow you to set the nul point to your tx and require the minimum of programming to set up.
Perhaps your friend could visit his loft and let you have one of his Bob Bords. I have not seen any advertised for many years and I disposed of all I had to friends who were still using.
Good luck and please keep us posted with your progress. I would be interested to hear how you fare with the old rc gear.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
8th Apr 2017 12:03  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27325

Dave, thanks for your helpful reply. I shall bear all those things in mind. I have to finish the boats yet, but will let you know once all is installed. Would I be right in assuming that even a simple rheostat won't work on a Taycol with field windings?
Cheers,
Martin

Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1145
8th Apr 2017 12:20  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27327

Martin
It should work but the problem is the current draw is high (say 5 amp +) even at low speed as the coils creating the magnetic field have to be energised. This means your rheostat is not so simple due to the high current draw. Your best bet would be to make a servo attachment with a wiper that had a heavy duty brass contact with some brass plates on a paxolin panel. You could then connect resistance wire to the plates connected to say +ve with the motor connected to the wiper via the -ve. It's likely to be big and will get hot but should work.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
8th Apr 2017 14:48  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27328

That sounds like an elegant solution, Dave and I will try it.

Any idea how much resistance wire and what gauge would be needed on each segment and how they would have to be wired together?

Many thanks,
Martin

Dave M
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 1145
8th Apr 2017 19:17  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27331

Martin
That's the question and I don't know the answer The wire will need to carry the max current and you will possibly need several strands in parallel and connected by nut and bolt to each segment. This will inevitably reduce the resistance per foot so the length will have to increase to get the same result. Each segment should be connected in series so your sliding contact has more or less resistance in play. Very much trial and error. I see the link I posted no longer works. This is cached on my PC so worked for me.If you want to see send me a pm with your e-mail address and I will share.
Dave


Live long and prosper

Dave
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
17th Apr 2017 14:29  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/27570

Well, I know I said I would be using older motors, but I think keeping them for older (non speed) boats is maybe the sensible thing to do, but the main reason for what I'm sure you'll all consider to be the obvious answer is that this weekend, my NiCad powered drill gave up the ghost, or rather its ancient batteries did, and unknown to me so did my son-in-law's! So suddenly I had 2 big ol' brushed moderns, but more than that, ESCs correctly matched to the motors as both drills have speed controls AND forward, neutral, reverse switches (and little finned gizmos which I take to be heat sinks) so what defense have I now against the "use modern stuff" brigade? I shall keep my older Taycols, SELs and Basset-Lowkes in period correct hulls.
So, the question is.....is there any reason why I shouldn't use the speed controllers that come with the drills and is there any harm in running the motors at less than the voltage they run at in the drill function? After all, I won't be doing up any 3" screws with these boats!

Cheers,
Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 424
4th May 2017 12:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28088

Hi Martin, using the drill controllers will require considerable electronics knowledge 🤔 as it is unlikely that the drill controller will understand the pulse width modulated signal from your receiver!
I also still have an old Taycol! Dad put it in a Sea Scout about 55 years ago; with a wet acid accu, free running forward only. I revamped it for my daughter about 25 years ago to run on a 540 brushed with RC. Used it as a test bed for a while, it's now on my 'to be restored' shelf.
Cheers Doug 😎


"Retirement is when you stop living at work -
and start working at living!" 😉 Doug
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
4th May 2017 12:22  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28091

Ah, no. Even I know that wouldn't work. I was going to use a servo to move the speed control in and out if I can be rid of the strong spring which is inside somewhere.

And when you do the Sea Scout PLEASE put the Taycol back in. We Taycol lovers (and USERS) are too few.

Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 424
4th May 2017 12:37  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28096

That's exactly what I plan to de - Restoration Blog??? Must go now, the roses are waiting 😉


"Retirement is when you stop living at work -
and start working at living!" 😉 Doug
RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 424
4th May 2017 12:49  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28097

One last input (for today😉) on the Taycols-
here you can find about all there is to know
http://taycol.tk/index.html
including reversing (some electrickery required!)
http://taycol.tk/Rectifier.html
Diagram attached shows how
Good luck 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"Retirement is when you stop living at work -
and start working at living!" 😉 Doug
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
4th May 2017 15:45  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28103

Nah, that might as well be a map of Aleppo, mate! I checked all the circuits on the Taycol site, I bought some .15 MFD condensors, but I still ain't got a cllue. I need pictograms rather than diagrams. I rewired my mate's Austin 7 using Herbert Austin's original pictogram, first go, but this stuff. Bridge rectifier? WTF?!

Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 424
4th May 2017 16:34  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28108

Hi Martin,
Thought that might be the case 😉
To help further I need to know which Taycol you have. Some have reversing coils which makes life a little easier. Photo?
All this Taycol chat (and the Sea Scout blog I found here😊) has fired my enthusiasm. I shall refurbish both motor and boat. My Motor is a Target by the way so I also have the reversing problem but bridge rectifiers I have and one can also use 4 separate diodes.
The 'bridge is no more than a square of 4 diodes, AC in on 2 legs and DC out on the other 2! the AC and DC+, DC- connections are clearly marked on the case. For 1A motor load choose a type rated at 2A for safety. Should be easy enough to find on the net. I use Conrad here for such stuff, Maplin in UK still?
Attached are pictograms of the reversing wiring for 'common' Taycols.
Let me know which model you have.
Hotspur & U26 may have to wait. Decisions decisions!
Bon chance mon ami! 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"Retirement is when you stop living at work -
and start working at living!" 😉 Doug
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
4th May 2017 18:50  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28124

Hi Doug,
I have a Supermarine Special, a Double Special, 2 Targets, a Meteor and a Standard. Also a Basset-Lowke, an SEL, a Frog Revmaster, a Frog "red bomb, and a Multum, not to mention Marxes, Mabuchis and Kakos, loads of them! In fact I'll use one of the old but unused blue Mabuchis for my sail winch idea...threaded rod, microswitches for one way and tother, all mounted on a stick of ally.
I also have over 50 open framed slot car motors from the golden age of model car racing.

So, plenty to choose from!

The Supermarine (when I find it again) is out of and will go back into my 53 year old Crash Tender, which I really must finish. I had it new when I was 11. The Double Special is an an Aerokits MTB.

Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 424
4th May 2017 20:27  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28131

Wow! A real collector 👍 Now that I have a Watt-meter I shall run some tests on my Target (after restoration!), test the reversing circuit and put it back in my Sea Scout where it belongs.
The Sea Scout looks a bit sad after 25 years on the shelf. 🤔 She also has the commonly reported problem of de-lamination on the transom, also the Cabin roof curls at the edges. Any tips how to repair and cure this are very welcome. I'm thinking of stripping and varnishing her. What do you recommend?
The grey lump half hidden in the cockpit is a siren, the servo with 2 micro switches is for this and the nav lights. Second servo is to swivel a water jet nozzle, pump is the black conglomerate at the rear of the engine compartment. A horrible piston pump but it worked,enough to surprise small boys who got too close 😉 Rudder servo on it's side, like everyone else has had to do. Current motor Decaperm, performance Sedate 🤔
Cheers 😎


Attached Files - Click To View Large


"Retirement is when you stop living at work -
and start working at living!" 😉 Doug
Westquay
(Captain)





Forum Posts: 180
4th May 2017 20:50  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28132

Doug, that looks lovely. I can't guarantee the performance would be anything but sedate with the Target, but that kind of boat in the real world would rarely be seen exceeding about 10 knots if that. It's essentially a river boat.
I would be inclined to keep with the scheme it has as it's nicely period with the off white. Maybe line the deck with a Rotring a la period too and veneer the coach house sides. I certainly wouldn't strip it as there'll be joints and filler and boring old plywood underneath. No, paint is the Aerokits look for sure

Delamination needs only epoxy, either the repair and build stuff or the liquid a la West, SP, etc.. slide a knife in the delamination and convince some epoxy in, then lightly clamp it twixt layers of greaseproof paper (when the GF's out) or plastic bag or similar. I use Plastikard, but I was given a box of lasered off cuts by Ivan at the Vintage Boat Company. He's now sold out to SLEC who are even nearer where I live! Anyway I have plasticard in three thicknesses to waste. If you stroke the surface with a scriber, it will make a weird hollow noise if delaminated. If it is, make a cut, persuade the edges up and insinuate some epoxy into the crack you've made. Ain't nuttn. you can't repair. You should have seen the window frames in my house when I sold it. A festival of epoxy, firewood and P38 car filler. Surveyor passed it with barely a look. Reallygood paint saved the day. Stupid waster! 400 quid Mr. Client, chching!

As for the extra gizmos, I'd ditch them to save weight and complexity. You might find a 3 blade prop works better, but I'm no expert there.
Finally instead of "this belongs to", I'd simply name her Jessica, in a nice script.
I hope that helps.

Cheers,
Martin

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 424
4th May 2017 21:11  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/28138

Many thanks Martin,
Actually her current colours are what I put on for my daughter Jessica 25 years or so ago!
I think you're right, I also had some fears what I might find if I stripped her. I'll just clean her up flat-off and rejuvenate the paintwork, spray cans from the Bastelladen damals!
The name plate is a stick-on from the ones we used to put on all her stuff for school 😉 Will make new decals, or stencils perhaps, using the technology of today. The gizmos were 'temporary!😊' as I used her as a test bed for various ideas.
Will clean her up as you suggest, get her running on Taycol Power and then see what I can do with the cockpit furniture. Not really my forte, but ya gotta start somewhere aincha?
Again, many thanks for the advice, and Goodnight from Munich.
(and it's Goodnight from him!😉)
PS Midsummer Murders I get here as well on zdfNEO, but 2 years later!


"Retirement is when you stop living at work -
and start working at living!" 😉 Doug