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>> Home > Forum > Hobby Chit Chat! > Ship rudders
Ship rudders
(2643 views)
Author Message
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
25th Nov 2018 23:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48337

I have been making a rudder for a large scale model of S S Hunan and having progressed, after a few set backs, wondered how other modellers built their rudders especially those with multiple hinges.

Toby


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
25th Nov 2018 23:11  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48338

Rudder for Hunan 1:48


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
25th Nov 2018 23:17  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48340

Two wooden pieces, steel rod, each hinge 3mm i/d brass tube, shaped with filler and then each hinge covered and the shape made using Strips of five glass and epoxy finishing resin. File to suit.
Pins for hinges clevis type 3mm.

figtree7nts
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 515
25th Nov 2018 23:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48343

Hi Toby,

Why don't you make a Build Blog.
Of your Build of the S S Hunan!
I'm sure others would like to see what your up to!
And see how you go about the build of your model!

Cheers, Ed


"Fair winds calm Seas"
73's
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 20:56  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48406

Next stage. Rivet effect


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 21:23  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48408

The rivet effect is made using 1mm flat backed domed head beads. I have them in blue, black, red and white and in other sizes.
The quickest method is:
Put a little puddle of super glue on some plastic. With the back side point of a scalpel blade spike the dome of a bead and dip it on the EDGE of the super glue. Place on object where required; repeat.

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 21:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48410

For anyone who wants flat rivet effect for steel decks etc then those highlighted in the photo are effective.

All these can be found for sale on eBay.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 21:36  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48411

Better picture?


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 21:38  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48412

Not sure why the photos from the mobile are distorted on the website for they are very sharp and correct on the mobile.

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
27th Nov 2018 22:15  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48415

Evenin' Toby,
Mobile has a ~6" screen, I'm using a 24" display!
You need to set your mobile cam to max possible resolution.
The website blows all pics up to fit the Media window.
Lo res pics then look very blocky.
Tip for all; basic problem is the size and quality of the micro lenses in phone cameras. All the pics I post here I take using a Sony Cyber Shot with a decent size lens at 15 or 20 MPix so sharp remains sharp on the site.
What are we looking at anyway??😲
Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 22:25  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48417

Doug
The picture stretches when uploading. The mobile phone pics are 4mb+. No problem on other forums

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
27th Nov 2018 22:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48419

Hi Toby,
Yep! Cos this website stretches them to fit the Media window that opens when we click on the pic icon. When I realised that I stopped using the mobile (Samsung J5) camera.
Imagine the size of the Media window on a 24" full res display 😲 and a 4Mpix pic stretched to fit!
Where on ebay do you get these bits? It's a good idea to post the link when you mention sources - otherwise we have to hunt!
Whatever; watching the build with interest, particularly the rudder as I have a similar rudder to make for my ancient fish cutter restoration / conversion. Cheers, Doug 😎
BTW: If you right click on the photo, when the pic has opened, and then on Show graphic a + sign may appear in the cursor, which means you can expand the pic. Yours look much better when I do this. 👍
BTW2; I like the 'saluting red tadpole' in the middle 😁😁


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 22:44  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48420

These rivets are pva glue applied with steel nail.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
27th Nov 2018 22:46  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48421

Wow! Very effective👍
You must have the patience of a bevy of Saints 😉


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 22:48  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48422

Doug

I have found the fault. For some reason a silly update change d the camera setting to 18:5 or something ridiculous. I returned it to 16:9 and the latest photo uploaded to the web looks fine when I view it there.

The rivet heads I bought one year ago and so cannot recall the seller at present. On my 1:24 Danube tug I believe I glued on many, many, many thousands.

figtree7nts
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 515
27th Nov 2018 22:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48423

What is it they say "Patients is a virtue"!
Great looking effect!👍👍👍

Cheers, Ed


"Fair winds calm Seas"
73's
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 22:51  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48424

Thanks Doug
And bear in mind this vessel is 6ft 6" in length and about 12" keel to bulwarks so roughly 13ft x 2ft of plate and rivet effect. Bottom gets saw and the eyesight tires. But hopefully the effect will be worth it

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Nov 2018 22:56  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48425

Couple of other plates.

When I have finished the rudder and housed it to the rudder post and sorted the rc control linkage for it I will take out too the pond for ballasting and a swim. Once I know how much and where ballasting is needed I shall insert aluminium angle in to the hull to house lead acid batteries and lead blocks.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
28th Nov 2018 01:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48431

Mornin' Toby, I'm back😁
Pardon the delay, just finished tidying up the wiring and final running tests on Colin's Taycol Supermarine motor and converter board - to make it run off a standard brushed ESC!
The rivets look great👍 and the last pic was much better as well😊
Soooo many rivets 😲 guess you have to do them in batches, and then go pull up a tree or something, or you'd go doolally 😡
And I thought I was patient doing all the portholes and stanchions on my 4' 6" 1936 destroyer - that was ONLY hundreds! Rivets? Didn't even contemplate that!!
I think you should continue this in a proper Build Blog - there's lotsa good stuff you're doing here👍 And at the end you can make a pdf file of the whole story with just a few clicks😉 Be a nice memento👍
Look forward to the Launch Report.
During my career I attended the launches of several naval ships I had worked on,designing the COMMS systems. The funniest one was a glass fibre minehunter at the Intermarine yard in Italy near La Spezia. The ship was still in dry dock, like a huge bath. They turned on the 'taps' and slowly up came the ship!
Keep up the good work, cheers, Doug 😎
BTW; were you sitting on the saw to help keep awake? 😁😁


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Nov 2018 01:38  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48435

Doug in Bayern

Hello.

That problem of the build log is that I don't have many pictures. I only usually take a photo at the end when no one can spot to easily my cover ups and touch ups. I take the occasional one to get a better perspective overall and sometimes a free to check all remains ok inside.
Anyhow I could try to remember to take a few from now to see if it is any help to anyone else.

Yes the 'saw' .... cannot find edit button for the posts and so had to leave that and other typos that the mobile deliberately does.

Le Spezia. I was there a couple of years ago. Interesting place.

Glad you are an electronic wiz for I may need to enquire of your grey cells in the future.

Was in Lindau am Bodensee for a few days. Sehr schön! I was with other persons so shame for i could have met you in Munich for i used that airport.
Still another time soon as flights reasonable.
Toby

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Nov 2018 01:39  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48436

By the way Doug

I pruned the tree fern...... that was enough as i am already doolally.

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
28th Nov 2018 02:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48437

Hi Toby,
I put the 'bloopers' in my blogs as well 🤔
Helps others to avoid the same mistakes. Nobody's perfect 😉
Re Post editing; after you've posted your post will appear with a [Modify] button with pink/lilac background. Click on that and you can correct any typos or make changes as you wish. When you're done click [Save changes].

La Spezia is OK but Lerici just round the corner is much nicer. Great fish restaurants on the quayside. 😜 Or Cinque Terra to the north is wonderful, Google Map it!
Had a lot of fun working with that yard, they are just over the hill from La Spezia in Sarsana. I used to drive down there from Munich, usually at night so had a lot of the mountain roads to myself and could have some fun using the whole road to straighten things out a bit 😁

Bodensee, Very nice👍 Never made it Lindau myself (but I want to), was usually at the other end on Grainau island or near the Swiss border.

Next time you're coming through MUC let me know in good time and we can go boating in the Ostpark here. Very convenient, Biergarten right next to the lake! 😁 I'll PM you my email👍

Re electronics; I don't claim to be a 'Wiz' but if I can help I will.
"Fragen kostet nichts"! as they say around here 😉

'Doolally'! What's the old saying?
"You don't HAVE to be crazy to do this --- But it helps!" 😁😁
Keep on boating, Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Nov 2018 02:12  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48438

Remember I am using a mobile so nothing appears such as modify etc. There is little functionality across the website via smart phone.

Toby.

You are doing your night owl stint too.

Well I have just coated the rudder in finishing resin and so bedtime. Undercoat in the morning.....oops it is morning already.

Bis bald!

Toby

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
28th Nov 2018 02:49  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48440

Hi Toby, that's exactly why I do not use a 'Dumbphone' for such things.
I also have a Samsung so called smartphone, I use it for telephoning (now there's novel) and SMS and occasional snapshots if I don't have a real camera with me.
First thing I do with a Smartphone is dump all the the bl***y pre installed Apps that I don't need and just take up memory space or constantly try to 'Call Home' and demand updates😡
As you have discovered; it's the Apps that are smart (or not😲) and NOT the phone itself. Like any computer; 'Rubbish in = Rubbish out'!
Before I left UK to work in Germany I worked for a year or so with the then Home Office Radio Regulatory Department and the then 'start up' Vodafone on Acceptance Test systems for the phones and surveying for cell sites. It was pretty clear even then, reading between the operating software lines, where things were going!
My first job here in Munich was reprogramming a test system for mobile phones so that it actually did what was needed to simulate the network and prove all functions of the mobiles.
Searching for cell sites with two great guys from the Home Office labs was a lot more fun - but the Germans paid better 😁

As you rightly noted 'Ich bin ein Nachteule'!
Aber jetzt reicht's mir auch!
Gute Nacht, Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Nov 2018 19:44  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48457

Well I have uninstalled the link/ icon to the website and just typed in the address in search. It came up with me already logged in and the pink modify now shows too. Sehr komisch!

Anyhow I have uploaded the rudder which now has a coat of undercoat applied.

Quite effective.

Toby


Attached Files - Click To View Large

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
28th Nov 2018 20:40  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48458

Looks fantastic Toby 👍👍


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
14th Dec 2018 21:11  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48836

Four of the five rudder post hinges made and prepared for epoxy finishing resin and rivet detail.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
14th Dec 2018 21:13  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48837

Just the bottom hinge to add.

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
18th Dec 2018 10:40  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48908

Next stage. Just the rivet heads on the other side to do.
Then oxide colour paint.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
18th Dec 2018 17:45  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48917

Almost there.
Have to turn some hinge pins and seal about the rudder access in the hull. Then to work out best method of rc linkage from rudder to servo.

T


Attached Files - Click To View Large

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
18th Dec 2018 18:20  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48920

Good job that man 👍
Super detailing Toby, and some useful 'How To' tips. Ta muchy 😊


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
19th Dec 2018 01:54  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48929

Thanks R in Munich!

The shapes of brackets under the rivets are cut out from a sheet of fibre glass. Depending on contour held in place with a dab of CA or the finishing resin, then topped with finishing resin.

I have now to decide if I use the rivet method for the reset of the ship. The hull effect was via dabbing pva glue but some spread slightly and thus look over scale on some. 1mm ~50mm so a rivet head spreading to 2-3mm ~ 100-150 and I think a 6" rivet head might be unrealistic?
What was ther likely rivet head size on such ships.

Toby

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
19th Dec 2018 01:56  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48930

Anyone know whether the hinge pins should be held in place by a nut top and bottom or double nuts top and bottom or just either top or bottom?

Joburg-sailor
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 13
20th Dec 2018 08:30  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48965

Hi Toby
I too went the route of riveting by PVA. The first problem was to thin all the hull plates on the Revell kit (my first boat) before attempting the rivets using a hyperdermic syringe and needle. Problem was "how many" and "what size"...I just forged ahead with what "looked right" at the time and probably would pay more attention should I do it today. Agree that "spreading" was a problem too.
Cheers


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
20th Dec 2018 13:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48969

Very nice Joburg!!! Gives the model that constructed feel rather than bits stuck on.

My eye was drawn to this model due in part to the eye- catching rivet detail. The model (picture of model attached) is Nordbornholm. I visited the builder of the model in Germany and have now the plans. You can see his other models and also his sales at: www.rex-schiffsmodelle.de

Toby


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
20th Dec 2018 13:15  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48970

My method of pva rivets was to dip a nail tip into the pva and dab that on to the hull plates. It was fairly cool in the house. Not sure whether warmer or cooler temperature would control the spread of the pva better. I am yet wondering whether or not to flatten the rivets I have just put on as they may be too domed. I am looking at photos online of hull/ rudder detail and may follow a similar appearance to that photo attached in leiu of there being no detail photo of the ship I am building. Photo attached. Wow factor especially when one finally notices the worker in the photo.

How did use get the syringe method to work for you. Did you thin the pva or.....


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
20th Dec 2018 13:18  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48971

Concerning the rudder hinge pins in the photo above can any one confirm the fastening method for I cannot see cotters through the nuts to stop the nuts turning on the pins.

Joburg-sailor
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 13
20th Dec 2018 13:30  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48972

Re syringe method. I just tried several sizes of hyperdermic needle to get the rivet size more or less right. Then ground off the sharp point on the needle and used the PVA undiluted with the needle positioned vertically above where I wanted the rivet to be. This prevented any elongation of the rivet and I only had to worry about the size being extruded. Good point about the temp...that could definitely have been a factor here!

RNinMunich
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 2547
20th Dec 2018 14:46  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48974

Hi Toby, they don't look like nuts to me.
More like bolts, threaded into the bosses on the rudder.
Possibly with a tapered thread?
Cheers, Doug 😎


Young at heart - slightly older in other places 😉 Cheers Doug
Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
20th Dec 2018 20:49  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/48980

So what stops the bolt undoing.

Here is a picture of another type.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Joburg-sailor
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 13
23rd Dec 2018 11:05  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49055

Hi Toby. Further your PM, thought I would try to demonstrate the PVA hyperdermic method as it has been about 5 years since I used it on the Flower Class Corvette.
Unfortunately I only had a 18g needle to hand so "overdelivery" was a problem together with the ambient temp today that is pushing 32 degrees outside!
I remembered by doing this exercise that when putting some pressure (very little) on the plunger that the PVA tends to want to drip, so the main thing is to support the needle at a constant height above the work (I used my other hand) and to move on quite rapidly as the pressure inside the syringe keeps reloading the tip of the needle. Lift the needle vertically as you move along, this keeps the rivet round. As always "practice makes perfect" so don't commit to the model without being happy with the result being achieved. Good luck!


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
27th Dec 2018 13:04  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49149

They is very interesting and helpful!
It seems to work very effectively. Just a couple which are different to others in the row. Very good.

What size are the heads....3mm?

Now to find where I can obtain needles and syringes. No doubt there will be health and safety and other red tape here in the UK to prevent easy purchase.

Do you usually use smaller than 18g needle?

Toby

Joburg-sailor
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 13
28th Dec 2018 13:01  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49172

Hi Toby
As I mentioned, I have not practiced this method for 5+ years so there will be a few that are slightly over/undersized. Most on the demo strip I sent you dried to 2.5mm and worked fine on the 1/72 scale model. They do shrink slightly on drying. Spacing and needle size will allow for "bleed" if you intend to go to about 3mm. I can't recall the needle size I used at the time but think it would have been in the order of 22g.
Fortunately (for model making 😉!) we can get needles off the shelf at Diskem here (equivalent to your Boots).
Cheers

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Dec 2018 20:35  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49178

I was not being critical. That route of rivets was very good. And as we all know one rivet will always find a way to be different if it can. Model indeed very effect line of rivets.
I am going to try another chemist tomorrow.

T

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Dec 2018 20:38  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49179

My boat is at 1:48 scale so a 3mm rivet will equate to a full- size rivet head of 15cm or 6" . I may have to go smaller.

T

steve-d
(Commander)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Dec 2018 21:14  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49180

search ebay with 'blunt needle' there are loads out there in all sorts of sizes.
Steve

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
28th Dec 2018 21:46  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49182

Steve

Thank you. I will check eBay now.

Toby

onetenor
(Fleet Admiral!)





Forum Posts: 504
29th Dec 2018 04:31  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49194

Also look on Gear Best and Bang Good for syringes.👍

Joburg-sailor
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 13
29th Dec 2018 09:38  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49199

No offence taken Toby I assure you. Pleased to read that there are alternatives suppliers should you be looking at going with the syringe/needle route. Still think you should consider using something smaller than the 18g that I used on the demo.
Best wishes to all on this thread for a Happy New year!
Cheers

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
29th Dec 2018 14:20  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49204

Thank you Onetenor.

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
29th Dec 2018 14:21  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/49205

Happy New Year to you Joburg- sailor.

Toby

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
30th Jan 2019 23:06  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/50053

Syringes and needles have arrived and so time to experiment. I will have to alter the rivet detail on the rudder for I have now seen the rudder plan housed in the Glasgow Archives. Very useful! Plus info on dimension and size of rivets etc.


Attached Files - Click To View Large

Joburg-sailor
(Sub-Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 13
31st Jan 2019 10:37  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/50063

Good luck Toby. Hope it works for you.

Toby
(Lieutenant)





Forum Posts: 66
31st Jan 2019 20:28  
>> Permalink
mdlbt.com/50077

Thanks for your help.