Blog

Command Boat 90

Scratch built at 12th scale from pictures and profiles of the internet. The boat was originally built in Sweden a class of fast military assault craft originally developed for the Swedish Navy by Dockstavarvet Speed: 40 knots (74 km/h) Draught: 0.8 m (2 ft 7 in) Length: 15.9 m (52 ft) Overall; 14.9 (48') Complement: 3 (two officers and one engineer); Up to 21 amphibious troops with full equipment Armament: 3 × Browning M2HB machine guns; 1 × Mk 19 grenade launcher; 4 naval mines or 6 depth charges . The Model I was attracted to this boat due to its great performance and maneuverability, this was mainly due to the use of twin water jets as the main propulsion, this is a trade off with efficiency. So my start point was to collect as much information as possible about the boat this involved collecting pictures and profiles of the craft from various sources. http://www.dockstavarvet.se/products/combat-and-patrol-boats/combat-boat-90-h/specification/ Eventually I found some plans of sort :- http://laurell.today/boats/combat/plans.html My Dad was a boat builder in the days of wooden yachts, and had showed me how to make plans and frames from a line drawing. I went about this first by creating a prototype about 24 in long out of light ply. I then created full size plans of the model to be made. Pictures of small prototype finally painted plain green. The Main model Used my computer to print out the frames onto paper, cut them out and used them as templates for the ply ribs. The construction was simple chine style, with 1.5 mm ply. I tried to build s but failed to produce a effective unit. So reverted to propshafts which worked out well with better control and the boat can spin on it own axis by putting one engine in reverse the other in forward and adjusting the twin rudders. That it for now, hope it was of some interest

6 years ago by CB90

Forum

Thanks for that,....this is what I was thinking of, just wanted to see if there any out there that needed re-purposing!!

5 years ago by misterbee

Forum

Hello, all! Before I commit too much time to research and nail biting, I thought I would ask on here if anyone has a they need to sell.....one big, or two small would do. Long shot I know, but I hate the phrase "I wish you'd said something, I have one..."! Thanks in advance, Brian.

5 years ago by misterbee

Forum

Maybe ? https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=jet+boat+motors&_sacat=0

5 years ago by camyaj

Forum

Darby One Design hydro...

Very true, there isint a lot of interest in speedboats today. I remember some great ones when I was a child in the late 1950s and early 60s. I once saw an Albatross on a lake in Scarborough that was towing a water skier in 1959. I believe that is was made of aluminium instead of wood but it did have an inboard engine. . Another one I remember was the Dowty Turbocraft powered by a water n by an inboard petrol engine . This was on the Southport Marine lake in 1961 and attracted a lot of spectators. it is up to us as model makers to keep the memories alive by what we build and sail. Boaty😎

6 years ago by boaty

Response

ASR 64 ft RNZAF HSL W1. R/C vid 3

Thanks for the positive comment, and yes, it''s a great pond, part of the Gulf Harbour development on the Whangaparaoa Peninsula in Auckland. it is home to the Gulf Harbour Radio Yacht Club, the members having built the jetty, and they race a number of times a week. I am about 15 km away in Red Beach but its worth the 15 minute drive on a day such as this one.

6 years ago by jbkiwi

Response

Dumas USS Crockett

Hope this works as I can't figure out how to post a video! Click on the media file and then on the download button. The file should then appear at the bottom of your screen. Spioenkop is officially a MEKO 200SAN class Frigate. I duplicated the unusual drive used in these boats in that they have CODAG-WARP; COmbined Diesel And Gas turbine - Waterjet And Refined Propellers. I have the main props motors and the on separate channels. The video clip shows the first test of this layout with the coming in after about 4sec of video and is switched off just before the end of the video. I was just so delighted that my system worked that I unashamedly ran it madly over-scale speed on this first outing....sorry!!

6 years ago by Joburg-sailor

Media

SA Valour Class Frigate

My second scratch build. SA Navy "Spioenkop". 1:80 scale. 2 Mtroniks 600 motors on the scale 40mm (home made) props running on 6v and Hobbywing 860 brushed ESC. Jetdrive (also homemade) runs on a 550 motor (I think!) and a 1060 Hobbywing ESC running on 12v. Chopper is a heavily modified Hobbyboss RN Super Lynx. Hangar door opens as well as chopper moves on helideck with worm drive and magnets. idea is that this would happen sequentially ... but haven't managed to sort that out as I am "electronically challenged". Suggestions welcome!

6 years ago by Joburg-sailor

Forum

SuzyQ

Thanks, i think i make a Water Jet or Z-Drive on the bigger modified boat, thats my idea

6 years ago by Dampfgerd

Forum

Spektrum, new, useless...

Doug, I may well take you up on that, mate. I would really like to get it going. Could you PM me your postal address? The Jeti I first saw was the 14 channel and that was £845 for the TX and £70 something for the RX. but I was only interested in the Tx. I wanted to frame it and put it on my wall! Czechs are SO clever and the women are stunning. The new 18 channel is about £1400, but they aren't anywhere near the dearest, even if they are the best. Haverlock, you can sing the Taranis praises all you like but anything that needs a PC to fiddle with it to get anywhere is the last thing I would pay good money for. I am a great deal more impressed by aesthetics in engineering, than complication. if I wanted to know what the batteries were doing I'd bring the boat in for a look. it would add some interest to what is essentially a rather tedious pursuit (which is why I have a preference, still theoretical, for sail). Believe me, I would never "get" the Taranis or anything like it, in a month of Sundays. I'm just not interested in all that techy stuff. Norman, I'd appreciate any input if you fancy digging around in yours. I wouldn't know what to look at. I didn't when it was soft valves and 90Volt Ever-Ready batteries and I don't now. I might have had Radio Control Models and Electronics Magazine from No 1, but none of it made the slightest sense and my Dad, (who paid for the subscription) never had the time to read it. I couldn't tell you the difference twixt a Super-regen and a superhet, a tone or a reed set. My old chum still has a working ED reed 8 channel set, but when flying, he has to constantly retune something with a plastic screwdriver, WHILST FLYING!!! And how did anyone ever do full aerobatics with single channel bang-bang escapement rudder onlies? Cheers, Martin

6 years ago by Westquay

Response

Command Boat 90

The Real Boat has s, but unfortunately the little 20mm ones on the NDQ boat would not move a 52in version shown, there are larger jet dives for models available from Germany but it would cost a lot more than my budget would allow. I did try to make some but they were unsuccessful. I have seen them fitted to other smaller CB90's but the crash stop looks pathetic. and jet dives are not very efficient. I would love to take a trip on a real one! I've just found a plastic kit version by Tiger Here's a YouTube link to an unboxing:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr5xGoMjBlI

6 years ago by CB90

Response

Vivace Patrolboat

The Turnigy 3800KV 2627 fits directly on the jetdrive without any modifications needed. Please remember to keep that small spacer made of GF, between the motor and the drive.

6 years ago by Tica

Blog

Vivace Patrolboat

Started on a new "in between" model boat Vivace drawn by Glynn Guest. I'll use a Chinese as designed by GG but with a minor modification 😁 Which is a BL Turnigy 3800KV 2627 running on 2S LiPo. (as I also did on my NQD Tear into Pro Mod.)

6 years ago by Tica

Response

Command Boat 90

Hi I like the boat would be interesting with . they are available quite cheap for the nqd jet boat from £9.01on ebay item no. 282721477302 comes with cheap brushed motor can be converted to brushless to make things interesting hope this gives you food for thought for maybe future build. thinking of building a deans marine PBR cannedheat and fitting it with a couple of these s.

6 years ago by BigAlio

Response

Pt boat

its a"pibber" this is the boat martin sheen used in the film "apocalypse now", first job for me would be get that cardboard flag off and find a silk one that will move in the wind! good fun looking boat though, and the s mean iy could operate in shallow water👍

6 years ago by pmdevlin

Response

Pt boat

I guess it could be sealed up. The opening to the s is small. You can't get your hands in! The opening which is under the 50 cal.on her stern. is meant more for working on the s! To grease if you will! You could maybe spray some kind of sealer! But why have to fix a brand new boat! I was told I had gotten a leaky boat. As for her sitting low. It's just the design of the thing! As the pump water. the boat digs into the water! Don't get me wrong it's a great looking boat! I sent mine back, the wife wants me to get another one!

6 years ago by figtree7nts

Response

Pt boat

When you say leaks from the , is it not seal able yourself. I know you shouldn't need to being a new boat but is it just a bad seal that can be rectified with sealant ? I like the look of the boat it rides the water well at speed. But it does seem to sit very low in the water at slow speeds.

6 years ago by BOATSHED

Response

Pt boat

Very detailed boat, But they tend to leak from the ! I had one had to send it back, Pity great looking boat! Do a bathtub test before you decide to keep it....

6 years ago by figtree7nts

Forum

Speedline s

Expensive $426

6 years ago by Captain-Steve

Blog

Damen Stan 4207

Decided to advance LI-PO plans and try a 4S 4000mAh pack. This weight of this pack reduced overall model weight by 8 oz, so it is now 9.6 lbs, close to the original target. Was also to slide the pack further sternwards until it touched the inner face of the RIB slipway, about 2.5” from the stern. The effect on the waterline was limited; the model now sits slightly higher with the waterline remaining level. Slowly increased the speed of the motors to assess the LI-PO performance. There was a significant improvement. There is no need to use “ full” power as it probably exceeds max scale speed. As the model accelerates the bow lifts exposing an area of the red bottom paint. The wake streams down the side of the vessel and curls off the spray rails. She looks very realistic. The attached picture is at part speed. The model is totally controllable, the influence of the centre fins is noticeable as the heeling is not pronounced unless extreme manoeuvring is tried. After 90 minutes of use decided all original objectives for the model are now accomplished. She looks and performs well. The next task is to tidy up the temporary wiring and fit the LI-PO properly. Will also have to re-route more accessories through the voltage reducer fitted for the bow thruster so the LED lights are not overpowered. Have also bought a small r/c controlled child’s jet ski toy with the intention is using the drive and control system in the RIB. it will require much mutilation of both the jet ski and the RIB to work them in together, but think it can be achieved. My next blog will tell.

7 years ago by Rowen

Forum

3D printing

When you download an STL file of your choice from let's say Thingiverse.com you need a programme to manipulate it in & export G code from, I use Slic3r (yep spelt right) it's free to download. in that you can flip, rotate, rescale & cut it into sections. I downloaded a Crackerbox hull, it's 21" long co I cut it into manageable pieces & printed it out over a couple of weekends, I'll post some pics later when I get home, I'm currently on with printing out a water for it. Just about any slicing programme will allow you to resize anything you load into it. I wanted some 1/4 scale hands, I downloaded a STL & printed out one hand to see what the scale was like against my Donald, it looked slightly too big so I reduced the size by 5% & printed out a pair, they look spot on. Don't be afraid of technology, if you can't find the answer to your problem on YouTube ask on here, someone will help you out. Cheers Wayne

7 years ago by Midlife306

Response

Top and hull come together

It's looking really good Rod. it will be nice to see how the fits, and what sort of brushless motor you're going to fit (And obviously, what voltage you're going to choose 6s plus. I've heard of folks using 2×6s packs in series 😨) The options are unreal. Best wishes, Dave W 😊

7 years ago by rolfman2000

Forum

RAF rttl D2763

A brief history After the second world war and as part of the occupational forces the Second tactical air force the RAF took over Sylt airport in 1945 and later in 1946 the RAF decided to use the airport and the airspace west of Sylt and Amrum as a firing range, and was known as RAF Sylt Armament Practice Station. From February 1948 to February 1949 the airfield was closed and prepared for the operation of jet aircraft. For target practice a target towing Squadron was stationed continuously on the station. The aircraft used were Miles M. 25 Martinet, hawker Tempest TT, DE Havilland mosquito TT. 35, Gloster Meteor F. 8, Meteor T 7. For instruction and training flights the flight also had some DE Havilland vampire T. 9s, hawker Hunter F. 4s, Hunter T. 7s. The aircraft of the target towing squadron were housed in the hangar of 402 near the South West of the Station. Therefore, the unofficial designation of weapon training squadron 402 was used at the time. For patrolling and securing the range area, as well as for rescue and training operations Marine Craft Section boats were stationed at List and Hörnum, Bristol Sycamore HR 14 rescue helicopters were Also station at RAF Sylt. Air traffic control boats and HSLs were stationed in the port of List at the beginning of the fifties (see pictures) D Boats In 1954, the decision was taken to replace the air traffic control boats and the HSLs with RttLs mk2s Rescue Target Towing Launch. As part of the rebuilding program to help the German economy the boats were designed and built by Krogerwerft Yard at Rendsburg. (Later taken over by Lursson ship builders) and were numbered D2762- D2766 these boats came in service mid 1955 which explains why my Father severed on both HSL and D-boats (preferring the D-boat) D2762 and D2765 Based Hörnum, D2763 and D2764 from List, with D2766 as a reserve boat in the event of maintenance or breakdown, Their design was very different to any other boats in the Marine Craft Section/unit more like the German Schenllboot or S Boot (allied code name 'E' Boat which my father always used), with flared bows and rounded bilges and powered by high speed diesels. The D boats were fitted with winches for Target Towing, these were removed as the boats duties were change to Range Safety and ASR These boats only served with the RAF, until 1961. Two were sold to the south African Air force D2762 and D2764 in1961, and the other three handed over to the Federal German Navy in 1961. All were subsequently used as ASR craft. D- Boats in German service The German Navy, the “Bundesmarine commissioned them on 1.9.1961 as FL 9 to FL11 and were used by Marinefliegergeschwader 5"naval aviation Squadron 5” Until end of September 1975. the three were termed as air traffic control The fate of these three boats is a bit uncertain, one of these boats was in the process of being sold as NVG S1 as a North Sea supply boat, this deal fell through and the boat was sold to private owner in italy (no further record for this boat found) the other two boats are said to been scraped or de-commissioned , however these boats are quit properly the two that ended up in the service of the Spanish customs service as cutters, after they were confiscated when smuggling, I have tried to contact the Spanish about these boats but have not heard from them and presume they were scraped or sold in to private hands ( there is the suggestion that they were driven on rocks and sunk, no evidence found) D-boats of the South African air force/navy The two boats that were obtained by the south African air force in 1961 were originally known as R30 and R31 and they served under SAAF until 1969 when the unit was taken over by the south African navy and R30 became P1552 and R31 became P1551 these were changed again when holiday makers referred to the boats as PISS1 and PISS1 too R30 to P30 and R31 to P31. Both these boats were diffidently sunk R30 Lost off Saldanah Bay on 7 October 1988 after striking a reef off Danger Point. R31, near Cape Point, after she grounded through contaminated fuel issues There are somethings about these boats that strike me as odd, The originations that took over these boats, they don’t like to mention the fact that these were ex-RAF or British boats, There is no record of the Spanish boats, it is said that they were sunk but no details are available except what is said on one form. I think I have done as much looking for information as I can, most of the bare facts are stated so thanks to all those web sites and forms that I have used and the pictures I have used I would like to thank to Dave M for the drawing And thanks to the marine craft branch museum for their help and for putting me in touch with Mr Rick Mortby who built the museums model of the D boat And a big thank you to Rick Mortby for the scale drawing and for his trust. And to Dr Christian Ostersehlte historian for Lurssen shipbuilders for the pictures of my Fathers boat D2763 and now I can start the building of the model D boat

7 years ago by teejay

Response

Jet Sprint Boat

I purchased two s for my Shannon lifeboat from https://www.kehrer-modellbau.de/en/. Bit nearer than NZ for Europe. Dave

7 years ago by Dave M

Blog

Jet Sprint Boat

Have been trying to source a 1/4 scale hull for a jet sprint boat but not successful so decided to make my own Borrowed a small model identical to the one I wanted and set to scaling it up by 2.5 times I have shown the start of the journey and will continue to post development until it is in action Have sourced 1/4 scale driver and navigator together with jet unit and electric water cooled motor which will need to produce 3 to 4 hp to drive the jet unit shaft Hope you all like it because it's been really interesting so far I should be in a position to pour the mould shortly and then have a fibreglass hull taken off😆

7 years ago by Rod

Forum

ESC problem

Hi Ashley Welcome to the site. With such high currents it would be advisable to fit a fuse in the wiring to the battery. I would reiterate Haverlock's advice, LiPos need correct handling in both the charge and discharge. The lowest recommended charge (should be with the paperwork received with the battery) for your battery should be observed and should be set in your ESC. Don't store them charged, the safe voltage is 3.7volts per cell and most decent chargers have a facility to discharge to this voltage. A Wattmeter would be useful the check the actual current under load. Exceeding the motor or battery rating will cause damage and for about £20 a Wattmeter will save you time and money. The Graupner is interesting to me as I am awaiting two jet propulsion units from KMB for my Shannon lifeboat. There is a max rev limit of 20000 revs on these units so it is important to match the brushless revs or risk damaging the bearings. I can't find specs for the Graupner but I suggest you check your documentation. Good luck and please keep us posted. Dave

8 years ago by Dave M

Forum

Shannon class lifeboat

Speedline are doing both a 1/16th and a 1/12th scale "Shannon". The development process is quite close to being finished and the first kits should be available in October for those who have pre-ordered. As Jarvo has said a very close to completion model was on show at Haydock Park and as usual from Speedline it is a work of art, the kit includes s and motors developed by Adrian specifically for this kit. You can see quite a bit of information at: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,51458.0.html (you need to be a member to view the pictures) The kit won't be cheap and leans a little more to ARTR than previous Speedline offerings. Looking forward to mine!! Shaun

8 years ago by Flack

Forum

Shannon class lifeboat

Models By Design are also selling a part kit of the Shannon. I have one and intend to build mine based on the Hoylake lifeboat as this is near to my location. The German supplier of the is on holiday until mid September so I can't start just yet.

8 years ago by Dave M

Response

PBR MKII

These are originally an I.C kit 1/6 scale , there is a company in Germany still making them believe they are called MHZ. I think I've scene them in 1/8 and 1/35 scale too . Also other builders have used water s on films I've watched . This one is running on brushless motor normal prop and direct drive as all my boats have so far . Keeps the cost of spare parts down %uD83D%uDE0E%uD83D%uDC4D

8 years ago by CraigRobotham

Media

IC 16M

Scratch built. 1:16 Scale. All data researched from internet. 3D CAD modeled. IC 16M is a swedish 15.9m. Aluminum Coast Guard Boat driven by 2 800HP Jet'Drives. Max. Speed 50 Knots. Builder: Dockstavarvet. Model constructed of all glued ABS 1.524mm (0.060") sheets. Deck details under construction. Powered with two 28mm. Kehrer s. 2 Swang Hobby 1200 KV brushless motors 2 90A Seaking ESC 5S / 18.5V - 25C -5000 maH LiPo Hyperion Battery. Weight included 1 Bat 4300 gr. Running at Mazenod Road Pond, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Oct 19th -2014 Jagged video because of stabilized feature from Youtube.

9 years ago by Sashaloki

Directory

(Pleasure Craft) Time .....The luxury yacht

The Dumas kit prime time. ... built to the original specs of the original minus the water . Time is on the left other is HMCS Iroquios (9/10)

10 years ago by Shipmode

Forum

Water s

Ahh plumbing fittings size . I'll keep my eyes open as I trawl for my s .

10 years ago by CraigRobotham

Forum

Water s

HI Does anyone have Information on or dealings with water s . Cheapest places to buy them from , what sort of size Is required to push how many Kgs of model etc . Any help welcomed

10 years ago by CraigRobotham

Forum

Water s

When I say small I mean outlet size of 10mm I think. May have to make it look like but actually run standard props

10 years ago by thething84

Forum

Water s

The NQD tear into jet boats drives are fairly small and inexpensive if that helps . Im the other end of the scale need bigger but don't want yo pay through the nose for them lol

10 years ago by CraigRobotham

Forum

Water s

Funny but I looking at s at the moment. Buy I want really small ones so think I going to have make my own or at least attempt it.

10 years ago by thething84

Forum

Water s

No these are good water jets but to small to push the Nam boat Neil . KMB manufacture ones that would do the job but I wondered if anyone has had dealings elsewhere as KMBs are £££ . Perhaps some one has made their own ? 😊

10 years ago by CraigRobotham

Forum

Water s

As discussed Craig, have a look at Ebay item 331364178908. May be useless but you never know! is this for your Vietnamese River Boat?

10 years ago by NeilHodson

Media

PBR ''Pibber'' Vietnam River Raider

This is my 54" Vietnam River Raider plodding along on Needham lake in Suffolk . Was originally an I.C engine but converted to brushless . I would like to one day convert again to water s , funds permitting as I have seen how well they perform . The real boats we're powered by water nozzle so would definately look the part .

10 years ago by CraigRobotham

Media

PBR ''PIBBER'' VIETNAM RIVER RAIDER

An electric conversion , was originally I.C powered believed to be from China . it has since been stripped out again and is awaiting another rebuild , possibly water s as this is what the hull was designed for in real life . Model is 56" long and at the time of these pics weighed 15 kg five of which was lead acid batteries . I have however become educated in the dark arts of Lipo usage now

10 years ago by CraigRobotham

Directory

(Other) IC 16M

IC 16M (Enforcer) from Dockstavarvet (Sweden) is a fast boat deployed as Coast Guard for several countries including Rusia, Poland, Mexico, Malaysia. Overall length 15,9m. My model is on 1/16 Scale, so its overall length is 1m. I tried to make it as real scale as possible. it is driven by two brushless motors and the drive type is 2 x s. Location, Winnipeg, Manitoba, CANADA (Motor: SwangHobby 1200KV) (ESC: Seaking) (8/10)

10 years ago by Sashaloki

Forum

fast electrics

HI Dave, I had a ducted fan driven sabre jet free flight model about1952, since then my aircraft had props. the boat I have just started is 1/10 scale sport hydro 1969 notre dame. you can find it on the internet. it will have a surface piercing prop with a flexable drive shaft, the only problem I have is knowing which motor to use to get a fast boat first time round.

10 years ago by navyman

Forum

Merry Christmas!!

Merry christmas to all, Santa just gave me a system. now need to find suitable boat to build for it. Just been for walk with my dog in the snow. Xmas is perfect this year, best wishes to everyone and have a prosperous new year. Colin.

10 years ago by Colin H

Forum

GRAUPNER MOONRAKER KIT FOR SALE

I HAVE FOR SALE A GRAUPNER MOONRAKER KIT FOR SALE It has been part built but quit a bit of work still needed to get It on the water,the three are fitted Incs 3 Graupner speed 700 turbo 12v motors she Is 58" long, collection only( Leicester ) looking for £400 lot ******HAS BEEN SOLD********

11 years ago by agoodboater

Forum

St Helens mbc fun day and sale of HS93's boats etc

ok we collected stuff yesterday, by recollection 34" ply huntsman 28, veron design, needs refurb, vert solid 34" crashtender (fireboat), never painted or used, all there, opening windows, folding mast, plastic superstructure, all brass fittings, a very special model, no running gear 3 mhb steam boats, all unbuilt a load of hulls, one is very big, 3 foot pibber vietnam boat, unbuilt, witn bvery expensive brand new german jetdrives, very nice unique project a selection of spares, tools, it really depends what I can fit in the car, as I need to take my own boats to enjoy the funday. if anybody has any requirements let me know, I can see what we have

11 years ago by pmdevlin

Response

Eric f.plaxton

Many thanks , Yes I like the colour scheme as well. I have several projects I would like to start one being the boat. as I already have the s in the drawer for the last 12 months,regards Jim clark

11 years ago by Chiefpurser

Media

Robbe Sea Jet

Finaly after many months of searching, found a replacement drive motor for my Sea jet. Appologies for the short video clip, but its gives you enought to see. Absolute total fun to drive !

12 years ago by Gregg

Media

Graupner Jet star refit

Finally finshed my jet star after buying her off ebay she was full of expanding foam and allsorts of other rubbish, but managed to get it all out and refit s and motors etc

12 years ago by vaderswar

Media

fast gets faster!

gearbox fitted, tested today with 8.4v graupner, running on 19.2v nimh. GPS Data logger installed, measured at 14.63mph, sound like a jet turbine!!, and this video was the slower of the 2 props tested. Improvements with gearbox, motor is stone cold (it is water cooled, but was still hot as direct drive) , quieter, longer run time, esc cold, now able to upgrade from 2 blade 40mm prop to 3 blade, and possibly 4 blade, amp draw much less. Video taken at Newsham Park, Liverpool. Handling is now difficult, as its going way too fast, but its great fun! and might go faster, with the motor thats been fited tonight, watch this space!!

15 years ago by pmdevlin

Forum

Mk1. Fire Boat Info Wanted Please?

HI Lyle, Thanks for the geography lesson and clearing things up for me. I made that mistake once before, and instead of building a Fireboat, I got an underpowered submarine with a apir of bright red, inline jet-drives... Andy

16 years ago by adross