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Good buy from Lidl
The "OZONE" smell is as partner said ,at least in part. As they bed in they arc a little and burn off any oil on the
. Very common on model trains. it will settle down with use.👍
1 year ago by onetenor
Taycol Supemarine Resurrection
IN THE BEGINNING there was what looked like a pile of rust😲
which got soaked in WD40 for 24 hours!
After washing off with warm water and washing-up liquid, and drying in the sun for a few hours, the bearings (and copper wire brushes) were oiled, missing connecting links bridged, and 6V (with current limit 3A set) was cautiously applied. Lo and behold she rattled and protested BUT RAN! Oh! That nostalgic smell of ozone, and enough sparks to read a book by🤔
Next connections were changed, to separate field and armature coils (brush gear), and connected to a standard brushed motor ESC (Graupner Navy 30A) via my prototype converter board, and a Robbe Servo Tester to simulate TX and RX. lo and behold chapter 2; she ran forwards and backwards😊 and no sparks!
Now dismantled (last 3 pics) to start clean up and replacement of corroded parts. Sorry Col, I broked your motor😁😁
Armature was cleaned up and
polished; surprisingly lots of 'meat' on it so motor has not been run much.
Next stop; lathe to make some new frame spacers.
After that new bearing bushes cos the old Paxolin end plates have worn so that there's about 1/32" slop!
Will probably have to turn the drive shaft down from original 1/4" (6.35mm) to 5mm to remove last traces of rust and pitting.
Cheers All, Doug 😎
2 years ago by RNinMunich
Taycol Supemarine Resurrection
The Taycols have fascinated me as well, ever since I dug the Target out of the Sea Scout my Dad built in the early sixties. I blogged my renovation of that and the conversion to run with a modern RC system and presumably that, and the converter boards I built for Martin (Westquay), is what triggered Colin to ask me to have a look at his Supermarine.
How could I resist!? 😉
The 'smell of something electrical' is the ozone gas caused by the prolific sparking of the Taycol metal to metal brush /
The other source of Ozone is on the coast wherever there is a strong surf!
I agree, a nostalgic smell, which unfortunately disappears when the converter board is attached to make it run with a standard brushed ESC. The diode bridge kills almost all the sparks. 'Almost' so the usual suppression capacitors are still recommended. 0.1µF across the brush terminals, 0.047µF from each terminal to the motor can, or frame in this case. Earth to prop shaft tube as well if possible.
The motor may not disturb the on-board electronics of your own boat, if using 2.4Gig, but could still affect anyone nearby using 27 or 40Megs.
The power density of spark transmitters (e.g. unsuppressed E-motors, peaks in the upper HF bands and diminishes to almost zilch in the UHF bands. I.e. approx 30 MHz upwards.
Like me and other submariners for instance; 2.4Gig is useless for subs cos it don't go underwater. Cheers, Doug 😎
BTW Boaty: where are the pics of your Avanti? Harbour posts without pics are pretty dead 🤔 Cheers, Doug 😎
2 years ago by RNinMunich
Seaplane Tender 360
hmm you have a good point Martin but one small problem, the old motor turns well by hand but I have not been able to get it to go electrically. it's probable that the brushes aren't making contact with the
2 years ago by Bryan-the-pirate
Seaplane Tender 360
If you want to do the SOE version she was most likely painted all matt black! The colour of skulduggery 😉
What ever you do, despite your good intentions to retain the 'old patina', judging by the photos you are in for a complete strip back and redo. Just as I have discovered with the PTB I bought.
Thought it would just be a 'cosmetic job', flatten back and respray with Pacific green camouflage. Ho ho ho! Pics show what she currently looks like after cleaning off layers of enamel, and discovering that the prop shafts and rudders were misaligned and the chine strakes glued to the paint. 😡 Never mind an engine room fire when I tried to test the 'as bought' motor installation. 😭
Since those photos I have fitted new a new chine strake and started reinforcing the thin hull with glass fibre tissue. Next issue; set prop tubes properly and make an alu bracket to mount both the motors. Then set the rudder stocks correctly.
Last thing I want is to dampen your enthusiasm, but that hull looks like it needs oodles of TLC. 🤔 Be aware of what's ahead of you and plan accordingly👍
Deck looks pretty neat, if unusual for a WW2 in service boat! As far as I can tell from the photos it's not just the cabin roof which is warped 😲 cabin and window frames will also need some attention by the looks of it.
Before you run that motor I would strip it, clean all parts and check brushes and
for wear. See my Sea Scout blog 'Taycol Target motor' for a 'How to'. Should run well with a 3S LiPo, 11.1V.
These boats weren't the fastest, 28 - 30 knots I believe. Which is why ST360 was reduced to more mundane duties after try outs by SOE.
Don't forget some spark suppression!!
Good luck, whatever you decide to do have fun doing it, Cheers Doug 😎
2 years ago by RNinMunich
what have I got?
Yep, that's what the Aussies have replicated with better magnets 👍
Should run fine on a 10 cell 12V NiMh or a 3S 11.1V LiPo. AFTER you've checked and cleaned up the brushes and
Have fun restoring, I know what's ahead of you cos I just did the Sea Scout my Dad built in the early 60s and have started on an ancient Billing Boats fish cutter. Cheers, Doug 😎
BTW To go in the cutter I renovated a 50s Taycol Target Dad had put in the Sea Scout, and modified it to run forward and reverse via an ESC and RC. Details are on the site somewhere 😉 The Sea Scout is now brushless!
2 years ago by RNinMunich
Sorry Ed, I was pullin' your leg a little 😉
Date of Manufacture and 'On Time' or 'Operating Hours' are terms I remember from my time working on naval ships and other MIL STD equipment!
But your question is nevertheless relevant to brushed motors in models👍Basically I wouldn't expect a max current of 2A to stress the brushes of your motor very much. And for that price I would expect that the
would be well machined thus minimising the brush wear as it switches from one segment to the next. I trust that you got the quality that you paid for😉
Therefore you should get many hundreds of hours of use out of your brushes! Simply check now n again how much 'meat' they have left and if the
shows signs of wear, burning or grooves from the brushes.
Or do you want me to do a MIL-HDBK-217F Reliability and MTBF Analysis? 😲 He He, ask Dumas if they did one, that'll throw 'em 😁
Cheers Doug 😎
2 years ago by RNinMunich
1960S Taycol electric motor
Hi All. all good advice for the normal brushed motors in cans with carbon brushes. But the Taycol is a totally different animal! it has no carbon brushes. They are simply stamped thin copper or phosphor bronze sheet.
Contrary to carbon brushes they need OILING to reduce the wear and sparking!
Attached are some pics from my Taycol Target renovation and modification to graphically illustrate the point. Pic one 'Before', pic 2 the new phosphor bronze brushes I made.
BTW: don't EVER put oil on your carbon brushes! Try it if you're curious, but then buy a new motor or try to find some replacement brushes 😉
If you run the Taycols dry they wear the brushes through until they have a hole in the middle and spark like crazy Pic 1. You can put what capacitors you like on, you'll still get interference especially at 27MHz.
Pic 3 shows the effect this has on the
. Pic 4 shows the renovated
, there was more 'meat' left on it than I expected😊
Pic 2 shows the new brushes I made from phosphor bronze sheet.
The spark energy density spectrum peaks in the HF band (e.g. 27MHz!) and falls off rapidly in the VHF band (30MHz upwards) to virtually nothing in the UHF and Gigahertz bands. That (and the frequency hopping process the 2.4Gig sets use) is why they don't suffer such interference.
BTW: as a matter of probably no interest 😉 most sets only use 16 or 32 of the 85 frequencies available in the band! 😲
The capacitor values given above are unusual and will only work with a 'canned' motor, which the Taycol ain't! The norm for a standard canned motor with carbon brushes would be 0.1µF across the terminals and 0.047µF from each terminal to the can, which with a Taycol you ain't got!
Earthing to the prop shaft is also a problem. Where do you connect the wire? There's no 'can'. Frame? That's paxolin! try soldering to laminated iron core if you want. Good luck. Won't achieve much even if you manage it🤔
Once again I ask which Taycol you have, as the construction varies and hence the suppression methods / connections.
Imperative is the condition of the brushes and
to minimise the intensity of the spark generation in the first place!
Also important is how you are controlling the speed: also 'Period' with a Bob's Board or resistor coil and servo driven wiper??
These can also be spark sources😡 Never mind wasting precious battery power as heat😲
If you want to convert to using an ESC with proportional forwards and reverse, which Taycol field motors can not do without reversing the polarity of EITHER the field coil or the rotor coil but not both, I can show you how.
I did it with Dad's old Taycol Target, see my Build Blog 'Sea Scout Jessica'. Pic 5 shows my Taycol target dismantled, before the renovation.
Pics 6 & 7 the reassembled motor after renovation.
Pic 8 shows the motor voltage across the terminals before the conversion, complete with gigantic sparks of amplitude 100% of supply voltage.
Pics 9 & 10 show the waveform on the terminals of the modified motor at slow and fast speeds, hence different pulse width; broad pulse more speed, narrow less speed.
BUT: virtually NO SPARKS😊 and no capacitors😊
Trick is in the bridge rectifier used to connect the motor to a standard brushed ESC. The diodes in the rectifier suppress the sparks😊
Pic 11 shows the wiring 'lash-up' I made to test the motor before mods. Pic 12 the PSU used for the tests. ESC is a 30A Graupner Navy.
Instead of TX and RX I used a simple servo tester to drive the ESC.
Scope used speaks for itself! As expected speed control was possible but no reverse.
Media File 1 Vid shows the renovated motor running but unmodified, complete with sparks😡 Sorry Dave_M, I can't upload the ozone smell🤔
Media File 2 shows the scope display of the unmodified motor test, complete with the sparks that cause the kind of interference you are suffering from.
Wanted to add the final vid showing the clean waveform after the mods but it's too big for the site: 30MB max and the vid is 47MB 😭
Penultimate pic shows the circuit used to connect to a standard ESC (Brushed!) for full remote control proportional forward and reverse.
Final pic shows the test set up for the fully modified motor. Note 4 connections: 2 to field coil, 2 to brushes (i.e. rotor coil) as per circuit diagram of the interface board.
Have fun, cheers Doug 😎
2 years ago by RNinMunich
Graupner Elke HF 408
BTW Allen, Dave's comments re 'old motors' go in the right direction but the basic thought and measurement technique are not quite right.
There should never be ANY ohm meter reading between armature coils (i.e. motor supply connections) and case! Do by all means try this, but anything less than infinity, '---' on most digital meters, means a scrap motor😡 This test really requires an insulation test using what is commonly called a Mega meter. This has a crank generator which puts high voltage (ca 1000V+😲) across the unit under test. it measures the insulation resistance in millions of Ohms, hence the name Mega!
For us modellers not a particularly useful or practical test!
The most common form of deterioration in old motors is cracking and flaking of the insulating varnish of the armature windings. This does not normally cause shorts or spurious measurable resistance to the case but causes internal shorts in the windings thus reducing their resistance and therefore increasing the current they draw for a given voltage applied, as Dave indicated.
There are two ways you can check this, if you have a decent Ohm meter, one less, one more accurate.
The less accurate is done externally by measuring across the normal motor connections and thus include the resistance of the brushes and connections. Connect the meter where you normally connect the output from the ESC.
Slowly rotate the motor so you can feel the slight 'click' as the motor moves from one winding to the next (or one magnetic pole to the next if you like😉)
You should see a few Ohms resistance at each pole. Value depending on the quality of the carbon brushes. Better quality brushes (more copper content) = lower resistance. Note and compare each 'pole' reading.
If one 'pole' reading is significantly lower than the others then that winding has an internal short😡 The motor may overheat in that winding, depending on how many wires are affected, and fail eventually.
The more accurate method is to dismantle the motor and measure the winding resistances directly at the
, i.e. without the brushes in circuit. But this is only useful for nuts like me 😁 as in my 50 year old Taycol Target renovation. I was lucky no shorts and all windings same resistance + or - a gnat's whatsit!😊
Sooooo, to cut a long story sideways😉I think it's very unlikely your motor has any internal problems. I recently found one of the ancient Mabuchis I originally fitted in my HMS Hotspur destroyer 51 years ago, it still clattered along, bearings shot but electrically still OK 😊
Just take what you've got now down to the lake and give her a Go. if she looks right then she most probably is! As my German colleagues would say "Always a hand's width of water under your keel". Cheers Doug 😎
PS: "But trust me on the sunscreen" 😁
2 years ago by RNinMunich
(Pleasure Craft) Aero kits Sea Queen
I felt the need to build something large from scratch having built Sea Nymph Sea Rover aero kits Swordsman kit. Many GRP based I/C powered before converting many of them to Brushless power. in Feb 2017 I bought plans from ebay in readiness for a family trip to Wales. My brother in law has a well kitted workshop in which he produced Sailing dingy kits before retiring. The aim was to produce this boat for the least possible cost. Thankfully there are lots of ply off cuts in Wales plus an 8x5 sheet of 1.5mm so I set about making my own kit during the time I was there.
The motor was to be a Marx Decaperm selected from my bits box which I chose to set up using the geared drive. On the first launch performance was lacking to say the least so the motor mount was adjusted to direct drive but alas performance was not much better then everything stopped. The wires on the
had become unsolder end a common problem apparently
I've now fitted a 3650 brushless stolen from an early attempt of a Huntsman 31 built for my Grand daughter which had replaced the Graupner 600, she is now 19 and interested in other things beginning with B. Having fitted the brushless a lot of vibration was experienced his was traced to a misaligned coupling,next outing will be with a huco type of fitting just to check it out roll on Thursday. (Motor: 3650 watercooled) (ESC: Hobby wing 100 amp w/c) (8/10)
2 years ago by Rex3644
What motor have I got?
I have 3 apparently identical brushed motors. One I bought new, one came in a model and one was given. The one I bought recently is a Graupner Speed 600, but neither of the others have labels on them, although everything else is 99.99% the same as the new one. The only obvious difference that I can see is that one of the older ones appears to have an impeller in it so that the
is not very visible. Am I to assume that this might be another version of the Speed 600, that needs to be cooled a bit more than a standard one? Anyone know?
3 years ago by octman
The Taycol Target Renovation
Dismantled and armature / field coils separated to inspect the damge-
Pic 1: 'Les Bits' or Oh gawd! How am I ever goin' to get this back together?
Pics 2 & 3: it's actually in better nick than I expected 😊 Didn't get much use as I recall.
is meatier than I expected pic 3, brushes not so good, pic 2. More to that later!
Pic 4: Cleaning up the
on 'the lathe'! Good enough for this job, not worth starting up the Proxon. The stand is an ancient Black & Decker accessory, the drill is an also ancient Buffalo. Think it was an AA special offer when I still lived in UK about 35 years ago. Automobile Association not what you were thinking😉
cleaned up a bit. Can heartily recommend the ladies nail polishing boards for this sort of job. See pic 6 & 7 . NOT nail files, they're much too coarse. The boards are a handy size for our big mitts come in packs for peanuts and have three 'grits': fine, super fine and ultra super fine👍 So I started with a nearly knackered piece of 600 wet&dry and finished off with the board.
Damn! Samsung Stupidphone won't connect to the PC😡 have to go and dig out a real camera, more soon 😎
3 years ago by RNinMunich
It may be a transmitter/receiver problem or it may be in your drive setup that rears its ugly head once your on the water and your motor is under load. I had a similar problem with a twin motor setup which was fine out of the water but after 10 mins in the water I would lose drive to one or both props or one would slow down and just go round in circles (very embarrassing). I had no problem with radio setup so it had to be in the drive chain. I ended up changing both motors for ones with more armature poles, higher torque output and a different gear ratio. it also highlighted a problem with my first choice of battery which quite frankly were pants and used to produce similar symptoms as you describe. I now use Lipo power packs, they do have disadvantages but you can not knock the power to weight ratio. The main problem I was having appeared to be down to the 3 pole motors that were fine until they were under load, this caused the motors to overheat which in turn increases the current drain on the battery's, the net result is the motor starts to arch across the
and effectively becomes a dead short which in turn shuts down your ESC's or drains your battery's very quickly. As you probably know if this was to happen with Lipo's there would be no need for a smoke generator! Of course this only applies to brushed motors if you are using a brush-less motor then it will probably not help you.
3 years ago by marlina2
Soldering suppressors to motor
Regarding brushless motors, you must not add any capacitors across any of the three connectors.
The interference is caused by sparking between the
and brushes on a brushed motor, and brushless have neither.
I would tend to agree with AlanP regarding lack of interference from un-filtered brushed motors when using 2.4Ghz.
However if you are into fast electric then suppression is important as their motors can generate lots of RF noise and losing control of a fast craft is not to be recommended.
Whatever RC system is being used all signal wires must be routed well away from any motor high current wires.
It's good to see that we have members who have and share their knowledge and experiences.
3 years ago by Dave M
Motor Size for Vliestroom, Model Slipway Buoy Vssel
The rc gear seems ok. The motors look similar to some we use in our public sail tugs. They were sourced from vending equipment and have brush gear controlled by a spring. They work well but can at times get clogged up with lubrication that affects the brush function. I usually take each motor out of the model and give a good clean. I use isoPropyl alcohol but parrafin or any similar degreaser would work. The aim is to make sure the brushes seat on the
freely without sticking in their guides ans allowing the spring clip to push the brush freely.
Direct connection to a battery will re-bed the brushes and a very light drop of oil on the bearings at each end will help free any stiffness. I run for about a minute in each direction to make sure everything is free.
Could be the brushes are worn down in which case they will need replacing. This is not an easy option as spares are probably not obtainable.
Looking at the size they appear to be 385 or 400 motors which seem a bit on the light side for this model. As a rule of thumb the props should be no greater diameter than the motor casing.
Hopefully you will be able to resurrect the motor and all will be OK.
Suitable replacement will depend on the size of prop.
5 years ago by Dave M
Have a look at the Taycol Motors website.( http://taycol.hobby-site.com/) They have details on using field wound motors with a bridge rectifier to reverse the field coil. A Bobs type board would certainly work provided it is capable of carrying the current. Equally a standard ESC will work but I suggest you apply some capacitors over the input as back EMF can be quite high and the sparks from the
will generate lots of interference especially with 27Mhz receivers.
I suggest you try on 6v with a direct connection initially and see if it turns. Add an ammeter and see what current is flowing and then adjust the battery voltage to see what happens. Once you know the approx voltage and likely current try a suitable speed controller.
For their day such motors were powerful but not very efficient so don't expect to see great performance. in a vintage model it should look the part and perform OK.
Best5 of luck 😀
7 years ago by Dave M
Ebay quick refurb.
I noticed this nice looking speedboat on Ebay, I thought to myself that it had some potential, especially with its sleek shape.
The item description may of put some people/bidders off, because it had no electrics and the motor was described as "not working", but at least the original gearbox drive was still in, along with the original style rudder and "Z" drive uj coupling to the prop.
First job was to remove the motor, only to find it was a "Le mans " sport motor. The bearings were a little tight, but after removing the brushes, the
was badly oxidised, giving the reason why it would not power up. So I carefully cleaned it up with some fine abrhasive paper, I also cleaned the drive faces of the brushes before refitting. I also lubricated the motor bearings before going any further.
I put the motor in my vice, connected up a couple of power leads to a 6v battery, not wanting to go full voltage straight away and he presto, the motor sprang in to life!
8 years ago by Gregg
er yes I have an A licence armature
I have one of those in my Taycol, its the bit the
is attached too 😀
9 years ago by sgtbarnes
48''fire boat renovation
Motor is a Taycol. There were several variants yours may be the double special as I note there are three wires. if you put a 12v battery neg to the left hand single lead and the pos to one of the other leads the motor should run giving you a nice sparking display from the two wire brushes. Before you fire up put some oil in the two oil bushes at each end of the armature - in a brass bit with a hole. it may help tp also oil the
and brushes - ok in this engine as both are brass.
I suggest you just touch the last contact to your chosen connection as the current will be high at startup. Free running used to be about 5amps. in its day this was the bees knees but was mainly used in free running models as the electrical interference is high. I have a 34" version of this fire boat amd use a brushless motor. However there are several posts on this site with various brushed motor / speed controller / battery commutations and suitable props. I suggest you don't try to use the Taycol if you intend to fit radio control. Hope this helps. The restoration looks to be going well. Dave