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>> Home > Tags > commutator

commutator
commutator
Good buy from Lidl by onetenor Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 14 days ago
The "OZONE" smell is as partner said ,at least in part. As they bed in they arc a little and burn off any oil on the commutator. Very common on model trains. It will settle down with use.👍

Taycol Supemarine Resurrection by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 5 months ago
Hi Boaty, The Taycols have fascinated me as well, ever since I dug the Target out of the Sea Scout my Dad built in the early sixties. I blogged my renovation of that and the conversion to run with a modern RC system and presumably that, and the converter boards I built for Martin (Westquay), is what triggered Colin to ask me to have a look at his Supermarine. How could I resist!? 😉 The 'smell of something electrical' is the ozone gas caused by the prolific sparking of the Taycol metal to metal brush / commutator combination. The other source of Ozone is on the coast wherever there is a strong surf! I agree, a nostalgic smell, which unfortunately disappears when the converter board is attached to make it run with a standard brushed ESC. The diode bridge kills almost all the sparks. 'Almost' so the usual suppression capacitors are still recommended. 0.1µF across the brush terminals, 0.047µF from each terminal to the motor can, or frame in this case. Earth to prop shaft tube as well if possible. The motor may not disturb the on-board electronics of your own boat, if using 2.4Gig, but could still affect anyone nearby using 27 or 40Megs. The power density of spark transmitters (e.g. unsuppressed E-motors, peaks in the upper HF bands and diminishes to almost zilch in the UHF bands. I.e. approx 300 MHz upwards. Like me and other submariners for instance; 2.4Gig is useless for subs cos it don't go underwater. Cheers, Doug 😎 But here! BTW Boaty: where are the pics of your Avanti? Harbour posts without pics are pretty dead 🤔 Cheers, Doug 😎

Taycol Supemarine Resurrection by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 5 months ago
IN THE BEGINNING there was what looked like a pile of rust😲 which got soaked in WD40 for 24 hours! After washing off with warm water and washing-up liquid, and drying in the sun for a few hours, the bearings (and copper wire brushes) were oiled, missing connecting links bridged, and 6V (with current limit 3A set) was cautiously applied. Lo and behold she rattled and protested BUT RAN! Oh! That nostalgic smell of ozone, and enough sparks to read a book by🤔 Next connections were changed, to separate field and armature coils (brush gear), and connected to a standard brushed motor ESC (Graupner Navy 30A) via my prototype converter board, and a Robbe Servo Tester to simulate TX and RX. lo and behold chapter 2; she ran forwards and backwards😊 and no sparks! Now dismantled (last 3 pics) to start clean up and replacement of corroded parts. Sorry Col, I broked your motor😁😁 Armature was cleaned up and commutator polished; surprisingly lots of 'meat' on it so motor has not been run much. Next stop; lathe to make some new frame spacers. After that new bearing bushes cos the old Paxolin end plates have worn so that there's about 1/32" slop! Will probably have to turn the drive shaft down from original 1/4" (6.35mm) to 5mm to remove last traces of rust and pitting. Cheers All, Doug 😎

Hull Pt2: Motorisation - Come What May!! by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 7 months ago
As promised (or threatened?😁) stage two of the hull work and thoughts on motorisation. The hull was sprayed with two coats of grey primer/filler. Pic1. As usual this showed up the remaining imperfections (pics 2 & 3), but I'm not going to worry about them until I've got prop shaft tube and rudder stock sorted out and permanently fitted 😉 After my attempts to make and thread a 3mm prop shaft went awry Martin (Westway the Mechanicals Master👍) stepped in and made me a decent one complete with a bushed stuffing tube 👍 Vielen Dank Meister😊 I did however manage to make a 4mm to 3mm reducer so that I could fit a Rabeosch 35mm prop as seen in pics 2 & 3. The tube and shaft from Martin, arrived Saturday an' he only made it on Monday😊, have been dry fitted so that I can start setting up the gears, necessary to bring the drive down to the prop shaft fitted very low down in the hull, and motor mount. Pic 4. Motorisation: (Remember folks - this kit was designed and built as a static model!) I want to use the old 1950s Taycol Target motor which my Dad originally fitted in the Sea Scout which I have renovated and upgraded to brushless. See Build blog 'Sea Scout - Jessica' Many of you will know that the Taycol motors were field coil motors, meaning that they have no permanent magnet around the rotor coil, and thus reversing the battery connections to the brushes had no effect on the direction of rotation, as this simply reversed the magnetic fields of both stator and rotor coils🤔 To counteract this so that the motor could be used in both forward and reverse with a conventional brushed ESC I modified the motor slightly (separated the two coils) and built a simple converter board to connect it to the ESC. Again see the Sea Scout blog for the details of the conversion. Basically; once the field coil and brush-gear (rotor coil) have been separated a simple diode bridge can be used to apply the output of the ESC to the motor. This enables the reversal of EITHER field OR rotor coil polarity, depending on how you connect the converter to the motor. Thus reversing the direction of rotation of the motor. Beneficial side effect is that the diodes also suppress the commutator sparking😊 In my case, with the Taycol Target, I also cleaned, flattened and polished the commutator. Thus significantly reducing the potential for spark generation in the first place! A peculiarity of the Taycol motors is that they all use metal brushes, pressed phosphor bronze strip, so they need oiling! DO NOT oil conventional brushed motors with carbon brushes unless the brushes are exchangeable or you want to have to buy a new motor!!!!! Pics 5 & 6 show the proposed position of the Taycol in Gina 2 and pic 7 the prototype converter board I knocked up to test the motor, together with a Graupner Navy V30R Marine Brushed ESC. Details and results in the Sea Scout blog, including video of the sparks and oscilloscope pics of the drive waveforms before and after conversion! The latter showing the spark suppression effect of the converter😊 Some samples attached - last 3 pics. Pic 8 pic shows a more compact version of the converter, one of a few types I'm doing for Martin's various Taycols as a trade for the prop shaft he made for me and some useful material he sent. Thanks mate👍 Next steps will be 1) mounting the gears correctly on the shafts, requiring the manufacture of a 3/32" to 4mm adaptor and a 1/8" to 4mm adaptor, and keying them to the shafts - Hooray for mini milling machines 😉 2) manufacturing bushed end plates to hold the gears in place, 3) fitting the motor mounting platform. I'll probably borrow from my experiences of real shipbuilding and do this as a suspended 'false floor', i.e. mounted on stiff springs to enable adjustments to optimise the gearing mesh! On real naval ships this is done to improve shock resistance and to minimise engine noise / vibration conduction to the hull, thus significantly reducing the acoustic signature of the ship. Not that I'm tooo worried about being torpedoed 😁 Worth a try😉 Pic 9 shows the cleaned up and renovated Taycol Target motor. Pic 10 shows the drive waveform complete with sparks before modification.🤔 Pic 11 the cleaned 'forward' waveform with the converter board. Pic 12 the cleaned 'reverse' waveform, no suppression capacitors needed 😉 More soon folks, Cheers, Doug 😎 PS Along the way a new keel was fitted as can be seen in pics 1 to 3. The original builder had 'buried' the keel in the hull planking! 😲

Seaplane Tender 360 by Bryan-the-pirate Captain   Posted: 8 months ago
hmm you have a good point Martin but one small problem, the old motor turns well by hand but I have not been able to get it to go electrically. It's probable that the brushes aren't making contact with the commutator.

Seaplane Tender 360 by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 8 months ago
Hi Bryan, If you want to do the SOE version she was most likely painted all matt black! The colour of skulduggery 😉 What ever you do, despite your good intentions to retain the 'old patina', judging by the photos you are in for a complete strip back and redo. Just as I have discovered with the PTB I bought. Thought it would just be a 'cosmetic job', flatten back and respray with Pacific green camouflage. Ho ho ho! Pics show what she currently looks like after cleaning off layers of enamel, and discovering that the prop shafts and rudders were misaligned and the chine strakes glued to the paint. 😡 Never mind an engine room fire when I tried to test the 'as bought' motor installation. 😭 Since those photos I have fitted new a new chine strake and started reinforcing the thin hull with glass fibre tissue. Next issue; set prop tubes properly and make an alu bracket to mount both the motors. Then set the rudder stocks correctly. Last thing I want is to dampen your enthusiasm, but that hull looks like it needs oodles of TLC. 🤔 Be aware of what's ahead of you and plan accordingly👍 Deck looks pretty neat, if unusual for a WW2 in service boat! As far as I can tell from the photos it's not just the cabin roof which is warped 😲 cabin and window frames will also need some attention by the looks of it. Before you run that motor I would strip it, clean all parts and check brushes and commutator for wear. See my Sea Scout blog 'Taycol Target motor' for a 'How to'. Should run well with a 3S LiPo, 11.1V. These boats weren't the fastest, 28 - 30 knots I believe. Which is why ST360 was reduced to more mundane duties after try outs by SOE. Don't forget some spark suppression!! Good luck, whatever you decide to do have fun doing it, Cheers Doug 😎

what have I got? by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 8 months ago
Yep, that's what the Aussies have replicated with better magnets 👍 Should run fine on a 10 cell 12V NiMh or a 3S 11.1V LiPo. AFTER you've checked and cleaned up the brushes and commutator!! Have fun restoring, I know what's ahead of you cos I just did the Sea Scout my Dad built in the early 60s and have started on an ancient Billing Boats fish cutter. Cheers, Doug 😎 BTW To go in the cutter I renovated a 50s Taycol Target Dad had put in the Sea Scout, and modified it to run forward and reverse via an ESC and RC. Details are on the site somewhere 😉 The Sea Scout is now brushless!

Motor Mounted! by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 11 months ago
Sorry Ed, I was pullin' your leg a little 😉 Date of Manufacture and 'On Time' or 'Operating Hours' are terms I remember from my time working on naval ships and other MIL STD equipment! But your question is nevertheless relevant to brushed motors in models👍Basically I wouldn't expect a max current of 2A to stress the brushes of your motor very much. And for that price I would expect that the commutator would be well machined thus minimising the brush wear as it switches from one segment to the next. I trust that you got the quality that you paid for😉 Therefore you should get many hundreds of hours of use out of your brushes! Simply check now n again how much 'meat' they have left and if the commutator shows signs of wear, burning or grooves from the brushes. Or do you want me to do a MIL-HDBK-217F Reliability and MTBF Analysis? 😲 He He, ask Dumas if they did one, that'll throw 'em 😁 Cheers Doug 😎

1960S Taycol electric motor by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 11 months ago
Hi All. all good advice for the normal brushed motors in cans with carbon brushes. But the Taycol is a totally different animal! It has no carbon brushes. They are simply stamped thin copper or phosphor bronze sheet. Contrary to carbon brushes they need OILING to reduce the wear and sparking! Attached are some pics from my Taycol Target renovation and modification to graphically illustrate the point. Pic one 'Before', pic 2 the new phosphor bronze brushes I made. BTW: don't EVER put oil on your carbon brushes! Try it if you're curious, but then buy a new motor or try to find some replacement brushes 😉 If you run the Taycols dry they wear the brushes through until they have a hole in the middle and spark like crazy Pic 1. You can put what capacitors you like on, you'll still get interference especially at 27MHz. Pic 3 shows the effect this has on the commutator. Pic 4 shows the renovated commutator, there was more 'meat' left on it than I expected😊 Pic 2 shows the new brushes I made from phosphor bronze sheet. The spark energy density spectrum peaks in the HF band (e.g. 27MHz!) and falls off rapidly in the VHF band (30MHz upwards) to virtually nothing in the UHF and Gigahertz bands. That (and the frequency hopping process the 2.4Gig sets use) is why they don't suffer such interference. BTW: as a matter of probably no interest 😉 most sets only use 16 or 32 of the 85 frequencies available in the band! 😲 The capacitor values given above are unusual and will only work with a 'canned' motor, which the Taycol ain't! The norm for a standard canned motor with carbon brushes would be 0.1µF across the terminals and 0.047µF from each terminal to the can, which with a Taycol you ain't got! Earthing to the prop shaft is also a problem. Where do you connect the wire? There's no 'can'. Frame? That's paxolin! try soldering to laminated iron core if you want. Good luck. Won't achieve much even if you manage it🤔 Once again I ask which Taycol you have, as the construction varies and hence the suppression methods / connections. Imperative is the condition of the brushes and commutator to minimise the intensity of the spark generation in the first place! Also important is how you are controlling the speed: also 'Period' with a Bob's Board or resistor coil and servo driven wiper?? These can also be spark sources😡 Never mind wasting precious battery power as heat😲 If you want to convert to using an ESC with proportional forwards and reverse, which Taycol field motors can not do without reversing the polarity of EITHER the field coil or the rotor coil but not both, I can show you how. I did it with Dad's old Taycol Target, see my Build Blog 'Sea Scout Jessica'. Pic 5 shows my Taycol target dismantled, before the renovation. Pics 6 & 7 the reassembled motor after renovation. Pic 8 shows the motor voltage across the terminals before the conversion, complete with gigantic sparks of amplitude 100% of supply voltage. Pics 9 & 10 show the waveform on the terminals of the modified motor at slow and fast speeds, hence different pulse width; broad pulse more speed, narrow less speed. BUT: virtually NO SPARKS😊 and no capacitors😊 Trick is in the bridge rectifier used to connect the motor to a standard brushed ESC. The diodes in the rectifier suppress the sparks😊 Pic 11 shows the wiring 'lash-up' I made to test the motor before mods. Pic 12 the PSU used for the tests. ESC is a 30A Graupner Navy. Instead of TX and RX I used a simple servo tester to drive the ESC. Scope used speaks for itself! As expected speed control was possible but no reverse. Media File 1 Vid shows the renovated motor running but unmodified, complete with sparks😡 Sorry Dave_M, I can't upload the ozone smell🤔 Media File 2 shows the scope display of the unmodified motor test, complete with the sparks that cause the kind of interference you are suffering from. Wanted to add the final vid showing the clean waveform after the mods but it's too big for the site: 30MB max and the vid is 47MB 😭 Penultimate pic shows the circuit used to connect to a standard ESC (Brushed!) for full remote control proportional forward and reverse. Final pic shows the test set up for the fully modified motor. Note 4 connections: 2 to field coil, 2 to brushes (i.e. rotor coil) as per circuit diagram of the interface board. Have fun, cheers Doug 😎

Graupner Elke HF 408 by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 12 months ago
BTW Allen, Dave's comments re 'old motors' go in the right direction but the basic thought and measurement technique are not quite right. There should never be ANY ohm meter reading between armature coils (i.e. motor supply connections) and case! Do by all means try this, but anything less than infinity, '---' on most digital meters, means a scrap motor😡 This test really requires an insulation test using what is commonly called a Mega meter. This has a crank generator which puts high voltage (ca 1000V+😲) across the unit under test. It measures the insulation resistance in millions of Ohms, hence the name Mega! For us modellers not a particularly useful or practical test! The most common form of deterioration in old motors is cracking and flaking of the insulating varnish of the armature windings. This does not normally cause shorts or spurious measurable resistance to the case but causes internal shorts in the windings thus reducing their resistance and therefore increasing the current they draw for a given voltage applied, as Dave indicated. There are two ways you can check this, if you have a decent Ohm meter, one less, one more accurate. The less accurate is done externally by measuring across the normal motor connections and thus include the resistance of the brushes and connections. Connect the meter where you normally connect the output from the ESC. Slowly rotate the motor so you can feel the slight 'click' as the motor moves from one winding to the next (or one magnetic pole to the next if you like😉) You should see a few Ohms resistance at each pole. Value depending on the quality of the carbon brushes. Better quality brushes (more copper content) = lower resistance. Note and compare each 'pole' reading. If one 'pole' reading is significantly lower than the others then that winding has an internal short😡 The motor may overheat in that winding, depending on how many wires are affected, and fail eventually. The more accurate method is to dismantle the motor and measure the winding resistances directly at the commutator, i.e. without the brushes in circuit. But this is only useful for nuts like me 😁 as in my 50 year old Taycol Target renovation. I was lucky no shorts and all windings same resistance + or - a gnat's whatsit!😊 Sooooo, to cut a long story sideways😉I think it's very unlikely your motor has any internal problems. I recently found one of the ancient Mabuchis I originally fitted in my HMS Hotspur destroyer 51 years ago, it still clattered along, bearings shot but electrically still OK 😊 Just take what you've got now down to the lake and give her a Go. If she looks right then she most probably is! As my German colleagues would say "Always a hand's width of water under your keel". Cheers Doug 😎 PS: "But trust me on the sunscreen" 😁

Aero kits Sea Queen by Rex3644 Lieutenant   Posted: 1 year ago
[Score: 8/10] 46" Aero kits Sea Queen Single Propellor (2 Blade X Type 45mm) Direct Drive to a 3650 watercooled (2 Blade X Type) Powered by Lead Acid (12v) 7Amp/h Batteries Controlled Through Hobby wing 100 amp w/c (100Amps) ESC - Comments: I felt the need to build something large from scratch having built Sea Nymph Sea Rover aero kits Swordsman kit. Many GRP based I/C powered before converting many of them to Brushless power. In Feb 2017 I bought plans from ebay in readiness for a family trip to Wales. My brother in law has a well kitted workshop in which he produced Sailing dingy kits before retiring. The aim was to produce this boat for the least possible cost. Thankfully there are lots of ply off cuts in Wales plus an 8x5 sheet of 1.5mm so I set about making my own kit during the time I was there. The motor was to be a Marx Decaperm selected from my bits box which I chose to set up using the geared drive. On the first launch performance was lacking to say the least so the motor mount was adjusted to direct drive but alas performance was not much better then everything stopped. The wires on the commutator had become unsolder end a common problem apparently I've now fitted a 3650 brushless stolen from an early attempt of a Huntsman 31 built for my Grand daughter which had replaced the Graupner 600, she is now 19 and interested in other things beginning with B. Having fitted the brushless a lot of vibration was experienced his was traced to a misaligned coupling,next outing will be with a huco type of fitting just to check it out roll on Thursday.

What motor have I got? by octman Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 2 years ago
I have 3 apparently identical brushed motors. One I bought new, one came in a model and one was given. The one I bought recently is a Graupner Speed 600, but neither of the others have labels on them, although everything else is 99.99% the same as the new one. The only obvious difference that I can see is that one of the older ones appears to have an impeller in it so that the commutator is not very visible. Am I to assume that this might be another version of the Speed 600, that needs to be cooled a bit more than a standard one? Anyone know? Chris

The Taycol Target Renovation by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 2 years ago
Hi Dave, Thanks😊 Bit of an adventure for me! Renovated / repaired many things in my time but never tried anything like this before 😲 Rust on the core was just surface and cleaned of nicely with a steel wire brush in the Buffalo. Inside edges are nice and clean. See pics in part 2 and attached. On the outside edges it was mostly dirt and discolouration of the shellac, or whatever it is! Carefully splayed a few laminations under bright light using a jewellers glass and couldn't see any rust😊 Should they be insulated from one another?? Eddy currents was never my thing. Shellac: I sure don't propose to unwind the coils clean the laminations and then rewind! Life's too short to go that far for curiosity. What would you suggest? Brushes: see part 2 for my intentions. Since then I've also been considering cannibalising a redundant motor for some phosphor bronze. Don't want to use the whole carbon bit as well due to the power loss. What do you think? Commutator: Yep, I had luck there, brushes hadn't started chewing them up 😊 Crimps under pax disc also perfect. Didn't find any crimp connections on any coils! All soldered, and all coils measure 1.1 +/- 0.1 on the Ohmmeter (less 0.2 for the test leads). Seem OK 😊 Will repair the brushes this evening and then try to put everything together again. Thank God for digital cameras! Monitor on the bench to show me how I took it apart 😉 Cheers 😎

Target Renovation Part 2 by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 2 years ago
Hurrah for the Cyber Shot ! Here are the missing pics 6 & 7 of the 'nail polishing boards' from last post! So, last night I used this board to clean up the rest of the parts. Results in pic 8. The bitza bazaar!😊 Back to the brushes 🤔 Caught them just in time before they fractured and started chewing up the commutator! Pic 9. They are simple phosphor bronze strips with a dimple pressed in the end for the contact. The crest of the dimple (the actual contact area) is burned / worn away but the rims are intact so, until I can get some phosphor bronze strip I will make a temporary repair by soldering a tiny piece of thick copper wire under the hole and polishing it to shape. Wish me luck 👍😎

The Taycol Target Renovation by RNinMunich Fleet Admiral!   Posted: 2 years ago
Progress 😉 Dismantled and armature / field coils separated to inspect the damge- Pic 1: 'Les Bits' or Oh gawd! How am I ever goin' to get this back together? Pics 2 & 3: It's actually in better nick than I expected 😊 Didn't get much use as I recall. Commutator is meatier than I expected pic 3, brushes not so good, pic 2. More to that later! Pic 4: Cleaning up the commutator on 'the lathe'! Good enough for this job, not worth starting up the Proxon. The stand is an ancient Black & Decker accessory, the drill is an also ancient Buffalo. Think it was an AA special offer when I still lived in UK about 35 years ago. Automobile Association not what you were thinking😉 Pic 5: Commutator cleaned up a bit. Can heartily recommend the ladies nail polishing boards for this sort of job. See pic 6 & 7 . NOT nail files, they're much too coarse. The boards are a handy size for our big mitts come in packs for peanuts and have three 'grits': fine, super fine and ultra super fine👍 So I started with a nearly knackered piece of 600 wet&dry and finished off with the board. Damn! Samsung Stupidphone won't connect to the PC😡 have to go and dig out a real camera, more soon 😎