Excellent Wolle, you are now ready to launch, finally.
You were very fast.
The system seems simple but efficient to me.

Hi Andy, congratulations on the excellent work done so far; The idea of ​​putting an auxiliary engine is a great idea.
Not only will it be useful for the absence of wind but also to facilitate turns if the rudder is not large enough.

Are you sure the motor is powerful enough for the propeller you put in?
I don't want to be wrong but it seems a little small to me.

Furthermore (this is not a criticism but a suggestion) perhaps you should put a fixed joint (not cardan).
This way you can align the engine perfectly before locking it onto the supports.
Then (once you have found the perfect alignment) you can also choose to use another type of joint.
The perfect alignment will reduce vibrations, noise and consumption.

I wrote you my opinion because you still have time to decide. I hope I explained myself.

Hi Majorray, I'm glad you're moving forward with the work.
A question: so you decided to move both paddle wheels with a single motor and not to differentiate them?

Hi Majorray, I believe (indeed I'm certain) that the model is pure fantasy.
Not only is the individual ship pure fantasy, but also the type of ship.
You can understand it at first glance, however I'll give you some details.
The hull looks like (but I say looks like it is certainly not the same) as a galleon, or rather an older type of ship like the carracca.
But neither the galleon nor the carrack had jib-type sails (there seems to be one here). These older ships had the so-called Civada sail on the bowsprit (I don't know how civada is translated).
The trees are too close together.
The superstructures above the forecastle and the quarterdeck have no counterpart in any ship that has ever existed. Never seen anything like this. I think they would capsize the ship if they existed.
I've never seen closed tops.
The shrouds could not be positioned like this in any ship.
In my opinion it is a stylization of an ancient ship made by someone who had no historical or naval knowledge but based it on his mental memories and based on his imagination.
This is not a criticism. The object may be liked by many but it is not a reproduction of any existing ship (as much as one wants to indulge in stylization).
I hope you will not be disappointed by this opinion of mine, perhaps someone will contradict me.

Hi Spence, if this is the same topic as last time, you should have already checked voltages and currents.
Furthermore, I also take it for granted that battery-esc-motor are suitable for each other.
I would also rule out the propeller as a problem because 25 mm certainly doesn't seem like an excessive diameter to me.
The problem seems to me to be of a mechanical nature (or at least the cause which then also led to an electrical problem I mean).
Since the joint broke (provided he translated and interpreted well) then the problem must be there.
Well it may be obvious but the joint under normal conditions should not break (in any case it should not break immediately).
In short, we accept a discussion of usury and super-exploitation but this is not your case.
I imagine that, before breaking, it could be stuck or blocked or otherwise run very badly with strong vibrations (if it is not homokinetic). This may have generated a overcurrent.
In theory (according to what I have learned in the latest topics on the use of fuses in brushless motors) the ESC should be able to intervene promptly and save the motor. Maybe there are some settings you don't know (but neither do I unfortunately).
But let's go back to the possible cause of the joint: why did it break?
To avoid interpretation problems (Google translates all "joints" the same way and doesn't make me understand anything) does your joint have one or two joints?
To avoid repeating the same things, I'll give you the link to the previous discussion on joints.
My message is number 24 (the part highlighted in red in the photo), perhaps it could be useful and interesting to you.
Bear in mind that I prefer perfect alignment between the propeller shaft and the drive shaft.
Misalignment can lead to problems that must be resolved effectively.


However, you who have your ship at hand look for other possible causes that have broken the joint, even trivial ones.

forum/134878

Best wishes for a speedy recovery PhilH, good luck.

I fully agree with Hermank.
When I signed up to this forum, on AndyN's recommendation, I was immediately welcomed by two gentlemen mainly (as well as many other good guys), namely: ColinH and Scratchbuilder.
From the beginning, ColinH has always been generous with useful advice for me and others, I have always liked your wit.
There are adversities that are difficult to comment on but I had gotten used to his continuous interventions, always very welcome and interesting for me.
In these difficult conditions your posts on this site will be even more precious to me.

Hi Wez, not having experience with fast speedboats I would also have taken ChrisF's opinion into consideration.
I have seen how his opinions and advice are always thoughtful and well-reasoned, but above all based on direct experiences.
Often practice in RC naval modeling is more useful than theory, because in scale models some effects are greater and others diminish, you don't get the responses you expect.

Without prejudice to your choice, just for a chat, I'll tell you that (all other parameters being equal: diameter, pitch, shape of the blades, materials) the more the number of blades increases, the more the speed decreases, but there is more stability (less vibrations), the more the number of blades decreases and the faster but more unstable the propeller.

If you are interested in the propeller, we talked about it in the following topics:

forum/1353777

wiki/137058

Hi Chris, finally!
How wonderful we have arrived at the launch of this beautiful model of yours.
It rides well in the water and sails perfectly when powered.
Too bad there wasn't enough wind to sail under sail alone, without using the engine. Surely sooner or later you will find a sunny day but with a good wind, in the meantime I congratulate you.

Hi RossM, when I saw these videos I thought of you.
You would be happy among these sailing geniuses, but they are too far away to reach them, too bad.
On the other hand it would be nice if some of them participated in this forum and showed us their builds in detail.
Have you seen how they maneuver the sails and how many types of sails in their channel?
The only thing I don't like so much are the weights external to the hull to ensure lateral stability, but you can't see them when sailing so it's fine.
When they are in the water while sailing, you can't even see the transparent extensions of the rudders, but without them they wouldn't be able to turn (having no propeller).

I discovered this channel today by chance.
I must say that in the last twelve years there has been a very high increase in scale RC sailing models (historical reproductions).
I noticed it because, about twelve years ago, I was frantically looking for models to copy or to inspire myself and I found very few YouTubers.
Now there are many, many historical models.
This is good for our hobby even if the average age remains very high, but this is natural.

Regarding this Youtube channel, I was very impressed because I also saw ancient models sailing with lateen sails (triangular sails typical of Mediterranean galleys).
Never seen before.
Logically they don't change sides of the flagpole either; it would be almost impossible but they tack and jibe perfectly.
The place is ideal for nautical modeling, large, beautiful and very equipped. A paradise for enthusiasts.

For lovers of sailing RC naval modeling, don't miss this recently published video.
Beautiful templates and beautiful navigations.
I think the place is closer to Wolle than Doug but still quite far away.

Hi Rogal, they are all excellent photos, you did well to share them but the one I commented on has a peculiarity.

We immediately realize that it is a scale model (however well made it is) and not a real ship because our brain immediately associates different proportions (correct me if I'm wrong).

What immediately catches the eye are the proportions between the model and the external context (trees, houses, people, other objects of notable size) but also of the waves.
As a rule, the lapping waves are always larger than reality (this is jarring and automatically makes us understand that it is a scale model).
The trees and people are much bigger (logically) and this is also giving away. In your case, thanks to the angle you chose, the proportion with the vegetation is not immediately established (thanks also to the absence of trees, people and other revealing objects).
Furthermore, there are no waves on the surface of the water.


Finally, in addition to the excellent attention to detail, the light and colors contribute a lot.

Hey Rogal, what a photo you took of the Orca! If it weren't for the puppet on board (the figure) it seems real at first glance. Congratulations, a nice effect.

Very impressive Hermank, well done, all that is missing is the navigation.

Very well Wolle was a delicate and not at all simple operation.

Hi Doogle, very good. You're making good progress, but what an early riser you are!
You're staring at the bridge, so is this the final battery and motor setup?
Check if you can easily remove the batteries with the deck in place.

Hi cgladd, I'm always very pleased when I hear that some people start doing nautical modeling again after a long time.
If it's any consolation, we have similar problems here, much worse in the centre-south.

Very good for radios.

Blessed are you Rogal.
I really like that little lot with the lighthouse.
But how stingy you are with minutes of video! Show us more.

Hi CommodoreH, beautiful Eagle.
I really like this type of ships that came out of the Hamburg shipyards in the 1930s.
I have a book that illustrates and describes tall ships.

Great thoughts ChrisF, thank you so much for your input and sharing your experience.

Good morning to all naval modelers.

Thanks Doug for all the clarifications.
Thank you also for your indulgence in unfortunate translations (I often don't understand well and don't make myself understood).
"So if we're just talking about contact issues, I agree." Thank you. That IMHO is the issue here.
Perfect, it's clear you were referring to connections. I agree with all of you.
I note that, based on your experience (ChrisF, Doug, Trident73, JBkiwi, Stevedownunder, GaryLC), you do not believe that a connection with a fuse can have suitable characteristics (no matter how well it is maintained) for managing a brushless motor.
This is very important and I must take it into due consideration.

"gold is preferred to copper in these cases (mobile connections), not because it is less resistive (or more conductive) than copper but because it is almost immune to oxidation and corrosion." Both reasons actually.
Just a quick clarification here: not for both reasons but only for the oxidation and corrosion issue.
This is a very common mistake (even the best people make it), many think that gold is less resistive than copper (i.e. more conductive). Not so copper is less resistive (more conductive) than gold.
On the podium in the first three places of the classic metal conductors the ranking is as follows: 1) Silver, 2) Copper, 3) Gold.


Thanks also for the explanation on how the brushless motor works, it's what I've seen and read on many Youtube videos on the subject (I'll put the links at the end so as not to cut the text).
I was excessively succinct and this may have generated some misunderstandings.
DC power supply, I meant that we use the current from a battery and not the alternating current from the mains. It will certainly never start with a positive and a negative, you need a special driver or an ESC that distributes square-type alternating currents (which attract and repel the magnets at the same time).
But this was clear from what I wrote immediately afterwards, however you were right to clarify it.
By rotation I meant the rotational sequence that the currents have within the various windings (see the video).
All your clarifications are perfectly reflected in the various informative films on the functioning of the brushless motor but the most important problem has not been answered:
I'm not sure that, in the event that one of the three cables is interrupted, the system will continue to provide alternating voltages (as you are convinced)."
I'm not sure either. But my gut feeling is that the ESC would do it's best to carry on with the feedback it gets from the remaining two connections. With considerable stuttering and loss of power. Which corresponds to the symptoms that FB reported.
Yes, I hope to have time to carry out some tests on this matter because this can be very important for us model makers (even if I had no intention of using brushless for my models). It is only out of pure curiosity that I want to delve deeper into the problem.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so far we have talked about topics relating to the Flaxybybuck problem and related to RC naval modelling.
From this point on I will talk about the other topics that deviated a bit from the main topic.
I'm only doing this for accuracy but if you want Doug we can continue in private if this bothers other users.

"It has absolutely nothing to do with the device which caused the fault in the first place. Your example puts the cart before the horse."
Why do you write like this? I did not say this.
I wrote (but sorry if I wasn't clear) that a protection device (fuse, circuit breaker, motor protector, etc. etc.) not only prevents fires but also saves the system (i.e. the wiring and other electrical equipment) .
I gave the example of a thermomagnetic circuit breaker-differential circuit breaker, because they are devices that have (or should have) all in their own electrical panel, even a minimalist one.
The circuit breaker certainly protects you from a possible fire but it also protects the cables and the pure differential.
If they come into direct contact with phase and neutral we are in the presence of a short circuit therefore we will have a very large current intensity, for example 4000 Ampere (they remain below the threshold of 4500 Ampere of a common single-phase apparatus). In this case it is true that we avoided a fire by promptly opening the circuit (magnetic protection).
However, there are overload situations (currents that are not short circuit but still higher than the capacity of the electrical cables and other equipment in the panel) which do not generate fires but, in the long run, damage the conductors, insulation and other equipment in the electrical panel. . In this case the thermomagnetic switch (thermal part, usually a bimetallic plate) intervenes following a timing that takes into account how much we are exceeding the threshold current, saving the electrical system from damage (not a fire).
Likewise the fuses. Some types of fuses are installed not only to protect against fires but also to protect the motor and the network from overcurrents (logically there is not only a fuse to protect the motor but also other devices, such as a motor protector for example).
"NOT specifically to protect the devices they are connected to."
I didn't agree with this.
Instead, I believe that fuses are also used to protect the devices to which they are connected.
This is what I meant to say, sorry if I wasn't clear earlier.

Hello everyone, let me say that it is a real pleasure to talk to you about these topics.

However, there is a lot to say and learn from you so let's proceed in order.
I have a lot to learn about brushless motors because, unlike synchronous and asynchronous AC motors, I didn't study them at school.
However, unfortunately I forgot too many things even about what I studied.

Everything I will write is to submit it to your scrutiny and to give Flaxybybuck a more precise idea of ​​what to do.

First Doug and ChrisF.
First of all, thank you for your explanations, always very enlightening.
Yes, I confirm that I wrote the last message before reading yours.
You actually explain the cause very well.
However, this explanation, which is fully shared by ChrisF and Trident73, refers to the problem of connections.
The fuse itself would not cause any problem. The fact is that it introduces new junctions (further junctions), which are of mediocre quality such as the faston type and those are the real problem.
If that's the point then I totally agree.
So much so that I specified that you need to tighten the connection well and make sure there is no play. I take it for granted that a new connector does not yet have oxide and corrosion.
If, however, you think that the fuse creates problems because the metal foil causes greater resistance (when you refer to the 1st and 3rd Ohm's laws, V=R*I, P=V*I or P=R*I* I ) because of its subtlety, then I disagree. Allow me to disagree, no pretensions on my part just to reason.
It is true that a small current causes a greater Joule effect, i.e. heat, in fact it depends on the square of the current and it is no coincidence that we transport electrical energy by raising the voltage up to 380,000 Volts and more to reduce the current for the same power .
However, it is also true that the metal foil of the fuse, as long as a certain current is not flowing through it, does not generate a high temperature, certainly not so high as to melt the plastic of the connectors.
In other words, I find it difficult to believe that the greater resistance caused by the fuse foil creates such a significant Joule effect. Fuses would no longer have any reason to exist if they were capable of melting plastics before melting them.
You rightly say that you prefer gold-plated connectors. In this regard I want to remind you (you teach me) that gold is preferred to copper in these cases (mobile connections), not because it is less resistive (or more conductive) than copper but because it is almost immune to oxidation and corrosion .
So if we're just talking about contact issues, I agree.

I really like your analysis: "the problem most likely lies in the only component that failed. The fact that neither motor or ESC overheated confirms that they were not under stress."
I agree with you even if it's not always true, sometimes a mosfet burns but the cause was a malfunction of the chip that controlled it, however this time the fact that the electric motor and ESC are not overheated is in your favor.

Nothing about the correct section of the cables, but I don't think that is the cause.

Regarding this statement: "Most folks don't realize that fuses are fitted to protect wiring from overheating and causing fires. NOT specifically to protect the devices they are connected to."
Sorry but I don't completely agree with you. I'm definitely wrong, but I want to explain my reasons even if this goes a bit outside the main topic (don't get angry Flaxybybuck).
I remember many diagrams of fuses and other devices of motor systems in the electrotechnical field (precisely to protect the engines themselves), but apart from this I can refer to civil electrical systems (the one in your house): fuses and circuit breakers serve to prevent fires but also "specifically" to safeguard the system (consisting of cables and various devices). The regulations in Italy, which implement the European ones, define, for example, the circuit breaker as a device which has the purpose of safeguarding the electrical system, unlike the differential switch which has the purpose of protecting people from indirect contact. So it is true that the circuit breaker protects us from fires (magnetic part for short circuits and thermal part for overloads) but it is also true that it protects the equipment. In fact, a (pure) differential with Idn current of 30 mA but maximum capacity of 16A must be protected by a circuit breaker of the same value for overloads, therefore a C16 (C curve of 16 A). This is due to Italian legislation.
Sorry for the digression, now I return to the original riverbed.

For Trident73.
I liked all your interventions, especially the suspicion that a screw may have slipped into the armature of the brushless motor, but your last message made me think a lot.
You could be right and if I don't recognize it right away it's only because I want to be sure.

"Imagine a situation where one fuse blows and the other two don't. They would not save anything and the ESC would still send signals to some of the windings causing a rapid stuttering of the motor and probably “magic smoke” to escape the ESC".

I don't know the brushless motor well enough.
I certainly know, in general terms, the operating principle. It is a direct current electric motor because it is powered by direct current but in fact it works with different alternating currents (not sinusoidal but mostly square). These currents that create the rotating magnetic fields are generated by the ESC (in our case), which must know the position and synchronize.
I'm not sure that, in the event that one of the three cables is interrupted, the system will continue to provide alternating voltages (as you are convinced).
As soon as I have time I want to do some experiments but, actually, it's a pretty big risk. Compared to the risk of overheating due to the propeller jamming (which I never underestimate because it has often happened to me), for example due to vegetation, this risk could be more serious.
You made an excellent point.

Logically these doubts come to me about the brushless motor, on the brushed I have no doubts about the use of fuses.

Sorry for the bad translation, I hope you understood something of what I wanted to say.

Hi Trident73 and Jbkiwi, sorry if I didn't include you but I only noticed your messages after writing mine.
Consider what I wrote to ChrisF in my last message to you too.

I see that all three of you are against the three fuses on the three electric motor cables.
This makes the discussion much more interesting and stimulating because when you have different opinions you compare and you can always learn something.

I'm curious to see if removing the three fuses will solve the problem (leaving all other conditions unchanged, including the diameter of the propeller).

As already said, I can change my mind, admit the mistake and thank you for having learned something, but in the meantime I would like to ask you a question.
Why should a fuse affect the operation of a brushless motor?
I'm asking you because a fuse (with current flowing below the threshold) should behave like a normal electrical contact from an electrical point of view. If there is no oxide, corrosion or false contact there should be no problems.

Hi ChrisF, I'm very interested in this discussion and your opinion matters a lot to me.
I would like to retrieve the old post to read what was said about him at the time. Unfortunately I haven't succeeded yet.
Can you put the link in this topic, so we can reread what was written?

However I remember some things.
I'm definitely still in favor of fuses, anyway. If sized well, with just a few cents they save very expensive equipment if not the entire boat. But this is another matter.

In this specific case I understand that you prefer (if you really have to install fuses) to only place one on the battery side. I accept your opinion but I don't think that additional protection (downstream as well as upstream) causes a problem. At most one of the two could be superfluous but I don't think it is harmful.
I still believe today in the validity of the protection both between the ESC and the battery and between the ESC and the electric motor (logically by adequately calibrating the size of the fuses), for various reasons that I have already described, however I am ready to change my mind and admit that I was wrong.
One can certainly argue about the very low size of the fuse (25 Ampere compared to the 50 Ampere declared for the motor) but the fuse did not break.
Using an undersized fuse generally means not making the most of the equipment you are protecting (if it breaks first), but it certainly does not mean not protecting it adequately.

Your ideas and suggestions are very inspiring to me and I am willing to admit that the three fuses may have caused their motor to malfunction as long as this is demonstrated unequivocally.
For this reason, if Flaxybybuck wanted to carry out the same tests by removing the three fuses after the engine, it would have to do so with the same 55 mm propeller. I mean you have to change one variable at a time to find the cause of the problem.
If we remove the fuses and at the same time reduce the diameter of the propeller, if the problem were resolved we would not understand whether this was due to the removed fuses or the reduced propeller.

I also reiterate that it is very important (where possible) to carry out measurements. To give a certain answer and arrive at reasoned conclusions, we should check how much current passes between the ESC and the battery and how much current passes in the motor cables (between the ESC and the motor).

Hi Flaxybybuck, thanks for this information.
I had searched for previous topics in which you had already included these indications and diagrams but I couldn't find them. I don't even remember if they were in the "builds", the "forum" or other sections.

You gave a detailed report and now I understand a little more, also thanks to the precious interventions of ChrisF and Trident73.
Nonetheless, I am very surprised at what happened to you.
It has never happened to me, nor have I ever heard of a fuse holder that melts but the fuse remains intact.

I'm sorry that this inconvenience has occurred to you, however you can learn a lot from these problems (the diagnosis of which is very complicated).
So thank you for sharing it and letting us participate.

To understand well I would have to have the naval model and the components at hand and see for myself, but I will try to make some hypotheses.

1. The strange case of the fuse.
If the fuse had broken we could have established that its size was too small, so we could have gradually chosen a higher one (30, 35, 40 Ampere up to the maximum allowed by the electric motor). But this is not the case, unfortunately.
Yet the fuse holder melted. Let us therefore start from this fact.
At the moment I can only think of two causes for this effect (but if I think about it I could identify others).
One of these causes is an overcurrent, high enough to melt the insulating plastic material (if I understand correctly this happened) but not too high to break the fuse.
Unless the fuse is of such poor quality I don't think the insulating materials can melt before the metal foil. I would rule out this hypothesis.
The other cause can be slow contact which does not break the metal foil but, due to the sparks, can melt or deform the plastic.
In this case, however, you should also notice signs of small burns, a small blackened part.

2. Probable causes of the overcurrent.
It's true, the first thought of an electrical overcurrent is a load that is too large which can be traced back to an oversized propeller. The first suspect is certainly the propeller but it is not one hundred percent certain that that is the cause.
If I remember correctly (from studies done when I was young), three-phase synchronous electric motors, if subjected to an excessive load on the axis, began to slip and lose synchronism.
I am not an expert in brushless DC motors but I believe that, for this problem, there are many similarities.
I will try to do some research on this.
Indeed, reducing the diameter of the propeller could solve the problem (it could).

3. Other Hypotheses.
The engine may be factory defective.

4. Tests to be carried out.
4a. Check the fuse holders and fuses, see if there are any blackening symptoms of burns. Maybe take some photos and show us.
4b. Reset fuses and melted parts (replace identical fuses). Tighten the fuse faston connectors well (they must not be loose).
4c. Do a test run with the RC model out of the water (with the hold open). I'm sorry but you have to be patient, so go beyond twenty minutes and set the stick to maximum if nothing happens. Observe at regular intervals what is happening in the hold.
4d. Repeat the test in the bathtub (with the hold open), not in the pond where you can't see what's happening.

Analyze the noises and sources carefully.

Tests 4c and 4d would be better done with the aid of adequate instrumentation, to measure electrical currents and temperatures.
I don't insist on this point because I understand that it can be an expensive instrumentation. Above 10 Amperes, for measurements of electric current intensity, the common multimeter is no longer sufficient but a current clamp (much more expensive) is needed. Furthermore, a multimeter that can also measure temperatures exceeds twenty/thirty euros.
In this regard, I would take into consideration Trident73's excellent advice regarding the purchase and use of a modeling Wattmeter (I'm seriously thinking of purchasing one too).
I have no idea how much it might cost.

If the problem occurs immediately, within fifteen minutes, repeat the test (after letting everything cool down) putting a 35 mm propeller.
If the problem is solved like this you can leave this diameter or also test the 40 mm and 45 mm ones.

Hi Dogle, the noise is there but it seems acceptable to me.
It is very important that no water gets inside and it seems to me that it turns well both to the right and to the left.
If you've found the right setup you're in a good place.

Hi Jumpugly, The Amerigo Vespucci is produced in several kits in the following scales: 1:84, 1:100; 1:150; 1:350 from four manufacturers (at least the ones I know of) but only for static models, not RC.
I only know one person who is building the RC model of the Vespucci starting from a static kit.
This is no easy feat. It is very difficult if you want to sail it only by motor. If you then want to maneuver the sails in that very complicated tangle of running maneuvers then the work is truly arduous.

Fans of naval modeling and ships in general, I wanted to inform you that the training ship of the Italian navy is in Los Angeles and can be visited.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci_(veliero)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_training_ship_Amerigo_Vespucci

https://www.marina.difesa.it/noi-siamo-la-marina/mezzi/forze-navali/Pagine/Vespu