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    DodgyGeezer
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    Member No.#1291
    RegisteredπŸ“…18th Dec 2010
    Last OnlineπŸ“…5th Dec 2019
    CityπŸ“London
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    πŸ‡ΏπŸ‡¦ redpmg ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Liked Motor Speed 2 months ago
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    Recent Posts
    πŸ“ Re-purposing an old Hull.
    7 days ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Look at the Marinecraft web site. Same hull, with 6 different superstructure...
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    πŸ“ Motor Speed
    2 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Unless you have all the parts immediately you will find it difficult to make for the cost of one shipped from China!

    If you need it immediately, you will need to source it in this country, of course. Here is one at twice the Chinese price - Β£2.03 to be precise - which is in the UK and should be with you by the end of next week.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-8V-3V-5V-6V-12V-2A-Low-Voltage-...

    If you look closely you will see an NE555 on the board!
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-8V-3V-5V-6V-12V-2A-Low-Voltage-Motor-Speed-Controller-PWM-1803B-M216-In-UK/113865219980?hash=item1a82e55f8c:g:77EAAOSwi0RbG4WB
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    πŸ“ Motor Speed
    2 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    We have covered this before - dropping volts at low power is probably best done with diodes in series.

    But if you want a motor to move very slowly you probably don't want to drop the volts - to get a very slow speed you may need such a low voltage that the motor can't overcome bearing friction.

    In this case you use pulse width modulation. You send a signal which has full volts for, say, 50% of the time and 0 volts for the rest. That gives you 'half power' - but the motor is given enough volts to be sure of getting it moving.

    This technique is used by the model railway boys for slow speed when shunting. So... something like this?
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-DC-5A-Motor-PWM-Speed-Contro...
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-DC-5A-Motor-PWM-Speed-Controller-3V-35V-Speed-Control-Switch-LED-Dimmer-new/191885437600?epid=20008384776&hash=item2cad436aa0:g:bFQAAOSwEIJbnMMk
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    πŸ“ HMS Vanguard
    2 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Maybe, if you slid down on a mat...?

    I wonder how far the barrels could depress? To get a decent slide angle you would probably have to enter via the muzzle and exit via the breech.....
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    πŸ“ My Shed Find.
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Something different, eh......

    How about a water-taxi?

    Small boat used for ferrying people around harbours, sightseeing, etc. Lots of them around - almost all converted hulls of a wide variety of kinds, so your hull would fit nicely. It's quite wide, which is an advantage. Lots of images on the net...

    At 1/25th scale, your hull would make a 50ft boat. The advantage of 1/25th is that you can buy cheap Chinese railway passenger figures at that scale - 20 for a bit more than a fiver. Which really adds to the interest, and allows for lots of detail...

    Here is the Lark - a converted New England Lobster Boat which ran a ferry crossing on the Hudson river. And here is a partially built EeZeBilt model of it at 22 inches. The plans will be out when I can manage it...and finish the hull...πŸ˜›

    For this model I have magnets built into the sides amidships. The carrying box will include a plug-together floating jetty, which will also have a magnet at the end, and so a perfectly aligned approach should dock the boat correctly at the end of the pier, ready for the next load of passengers...

    Lobster Boat
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    πŸ“ Mtronics ESC's
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Google is your friend here - it's the common shorthand for a Printed Circuit Board - the substrate on which electrical components are mounted. And hence it's often used to refer to a board with electrical components on it...
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    πŸ“ Fast attack craft
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    "...I charge them up occasionally and as luck would have it we recently had a power cut so I was able to power up a couple of car headlights so That we could see...."

    A very clever idea! You can get car accessories like immersion coils for boiling water, which may also be useful in the future.

    I have a number of old Uninterruptible Power Supplies sitting around with dead batteries - these will run off 12v car batteries very nicely and give me 240v if I need it - though at the cost of some efficiency. The last power cut we had here was 2 days ago, and if we keep running our energy strategy in the way we are currently doing, I expect they will become a regular feature of life. Luckily it wasn't long, so the web servers stayed up on their UPSs.....

    car accessories
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    πŸ“ Fast attack craft
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    ".....it seemed to generalise without mentioning the the decisive parameters involved, including cost difference!..."

    Um. Tricky to cover everything, in a 4 sentence comment!

    There seems to be a grave shortage of balanced advice in all aspects of modern life - though no shortage of advice per se at all! In a field where technological change is proceeding it is even harder to gather a useful view. Comparisons which were true one year are incorrect the next, and I suggest that it would be very useful to update any advice on the board which covers batteries....

    Luckily there is one reasonably independent place we can go for a balanced view - the market. Although it is not perfectly unbiased, we can deduce that if some battery technologies are surviving in that marketplace there must be a demand for them, and hence that these technologies are likely to be the best available ones for some specific task. We only need to determine what that is.

    As a quick example, if you look at a major UK battery supplier to the model hobby - Component Shop - you will find available:

    NiMH - both standard and low self-discharge
    LiPo
    LiFe
    Lead Acid (sealed)
    Alkaline (probably Manganese)
    Silver Oxide

    All of these will be the 'best choice' for some application. Our interest is probably mainly with the first four.

    There are many battery features to take into account. The energy capacity that the battery contains is one common figure, usually measured in amp-hours, but most people do not realise that that is only correct for a particular delivery rate. To make a motor go fast you need a battery with a high current delivery rate - able to put out a lot of amps over a short time. Dry batteries, for instance, do not usually have a high delivery rate - hence the poor performance available to us in the 1960s!

    My top-of-my-head generalisations are below, though I am sure exceptions can be found in all cases! 'Robust' refers to a mix of physical strength and resistance to misuse, such as over-charging or excessive drain. I will try to use the words 'capacity' for the amount of energy stored in a battery, and 'delivery' for the maximum rate at which that energy can be released...


    SLA Very robust. Cheapest for high amp-hour capacity at 6 and 12V. Can do high delivery as well, Very heavy. Use for displacement boats, where the ballast weight is a positive benefit. Can do heavy discharge as well, but many small SLAs are designed for emergency equipment use, and expect to support a light discharge over 10-20 hours.

    NiMH Fairly robust. Quite cheap for medium amp-hour delivery, and reasonable capacity. Low self-discharge costs are dropping and that technology seems to be expanding in the market, though they tend to be low amp delivery types. Some types can compete with Lipos for high amp delivery in the 30-40A range. Fairly heavy. Make sure that you buy a high-delivery type if that's what you need for motors. Low self-discharge types are good for emergency flashlights and RC transmitter/receivers...

    LiPo - Less robust. Best current choice for high amp delivery with low weight. Only readily-available type offering current delivery in the 100+ Amps range. Light, and available in very small sizes. More expensive than NiMH, high capacity very much more, and you need a special charger, though these can be quite cheap nowadays. You should really be using a charger optimised to your battery type anyway. Remember that each LiPo cell is 3-4V, not 1.2V...

    LiFE - Similar to LiPo, but more robust. Slightly lower voltage, but very flat volt delivery. Typical current delivery in the 30A range rather than 100+. More expensive than LiPo at the moment, but may displace them eventually.


    LiPos are essential if you are using a very high consumption motor - perhaps a racing boat? But when using such currents you usually require cooling systems and quite a specialist drive train. Brushless motors can take high currents, so LiPos are often associated with them, but you can use any battery with any motor if you want - just so long at it delivers the amps! There is no reason why you should not use brushless with SLAs, or LiPos on a low-drain application - though a LiPo may be more expensive than you need for that...

    NiMH are perfectly capable of making a boat plane - IF you ensure that the max amp delivery is adequate. You can, for instance, buy NiMh batteries designed for wireless phones with max output 500mA or less - these will disappoint you if you try to use them for motor power!

    A handy rule of thumb for estimating optimum battery discharge is to look at the capacity in Amp-hours. A low-drain battery is probably designed to put that out over 20 hours, so divide the Ah by 20 to get an estimate of optimum current draw. A high-drain battery is usually designed to output over 1 hour - so divide the Ah by 1 to get optimum amps. That's only a generality, of course, and the battery spec sheet is the definitive place to look...



    "...more likely that HE had shares in a LiPo company to be able to afford them back then..."

    When it comes to electrical equipment I do have connections. 😊

    If you think LiPos were expensive in the 2000s, you should try buying NiCad pen cells in the 1960s. Probably the most unusual battery I have used was a pack of saline/manganese oxide cells from ex-RAF life jackets, where the battery was open to the water underneath the boat and you could speed it up by scattering salt in front of it....

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    πŸ“ Fast attack craft
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    "...The point I was trying to say is that if you hear all the bad things about batteries exploding/smoking then nine times out of ten it is not suitable for the job or someone trying a short cut to charging..."

    Lipos are not continually exploding - if they were you would not find them on sale for long. But they do require close attention to the rules and the rules are somewhat different to those that people were used to with NiCads, for instance. They can easily be damaged if you do not treat them correctly.

    All batteries have an optimum application based on their characteristics - Lead Acid batteries, for instance, are great at providing working ballast for tugs and will tolerate a lot of abuse...

    batteries
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    πŸ“ Fast attack craft
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    "....Usually you post useable info, but in this case I have to vehemently disagree!
    And I would like to put the record straight before you lead our novice members to potential disaster, or at least an expensive disappointment!..."

    Well, this certainly stirred something up! And I can't see why? Perhaps RN has shares in a Lipo factory? πŸ˜‰

    All that I have said is standard knowledge on the subject. NiMH ARE more robust than LiPos - I can't see how anyone can disagree with that. They are more forgiving of overcharge and over-depletion. I have not said that Lipos should not be used - I use them myself - but I have stated a preference for NiMH where the benefits of Lipos are not a requirement.

    I have been using NiMH for around 15 years, and Lipos for about the same time. During that period I must have bought around 2 dozen packs of each type. I currently have one working LiPo pack, while all my NiMH packs work, albeit sometimes with less charge than originally. The Lipos have gone unbalanced, swollen, delaminated or punctured at some point.

    Lipos, when working, are phenomenal items, and make miniature flying models possible. I use them for this, and would, as I have said, use them when light weight and high power are essential. But they do require that you look after them and follow the rules - in particular, not over-discharging them. If you do not treat them properly they will certainly swell and fail - I cannot see why stating this is considered scaremongering? It is this lack of robustness that makes me prefer NiMH, since I do not take particular care of my batteries. NiMH will put up with this - Lipo won't. That is the gist of what I said, it is attested by other comments on this thread which stress that you must 'follow the rules' and I can't see how stating it will lead novice members to potential disaster or expensive disappointment? I would have thought the opposite...

    Incidentally, your comments about the differences between Lipos and Nimh seem to cover all the good points of Lipos and the bad points of NiMH. It would be more useful to novices to see a better balanced description. For instance, recent advances in NiMH batteries have produced low self-discharge batteries - (quoting the wiki)

    "In October 2011 the batteries were again improved to retain up to 90% of their capacity after one year, 80% after three years and 70% after five years."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneloop

    These are readily available, I have used these in emergency flashlights and can confirm that they do do 'what it says on the tin' (though I haven't had time to try out the five year claim yet!). They can be of use if your modelling practices include going to the lake at short notice.

    I hope this isn't going to develop into a flame war. As I said, I can't see why noting a preference for the robustness of NiMH should engender such a response...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneloop
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    πŸ“ Fast attack craft
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    I would use brushless, but avoid Lipos unless there was a good reason for them.

    NiMh are fairly forgiving of neglect - they can be left for months, charged and run. Lipos need looking after, otherwise they swell and might go bang. And boats are happy enough with the extra weight.. .
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    πŸ“ Upgrade to 2.4
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    If you know what spot frequency you are on it will help you to avoid interference - you should not try to sail with anyone on the same frequency, and you should display the right colour flag to warn other people. Is there a marker anywhere on your boat or instructions that has a number something like '27.nnn'? For instance, 27.045 would be Red....

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    πŸ“ Upgrade to 2.4
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    This is a plastic boat which used to be sold in large numbers for the RNLI. It is now rather rare and is collectable. Here is one on Ebay for Β£127! Note - that does not mean that they will get a sale at that price - but they will still sell for quite a lot!

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IMPACT-RNLI-SEVERN-RADIO-CONTROL-...

    These were often converted to 'proper' 2.4GHz by modellers. I've never examined one, but I think they are 27Mhz, driving two motors which provide steering and power. If that is so, a conversion would mean buying a 2.4Ghz radio set, a single motor and propshaft and a servo and rudder, taking out the entire inside of the boat and re-installing the new equipment. You would need some modelling skill to do this.

    It is unlikely that the other 2.4Ghz sets interfered with your signal. The 27Mhz set installed in your boat will have limited range compared with the 2.4Ghz systems, but it should work adequately close to you. Perhaps your batteries are weak, the aerial is badly positioned, or there was some 27Mhz interference close to you?

    If someone else was using a 27Mhz radio close to you then it may interfere if they and you were on the same 'spot frequency'. The 27Mhz band is divided up into sections, and only one boat can use one of those sections at a time. These sections are given colours, and you fly a coloured flag on your aerial to tell everyone that you are using that section - called a 'spot'. Do you know what spot your boat is on, and was there anyone flying a coloured flag on their aerial near you?

    I think you have a difficult decision. Either keep it as it is and make it work as well as it can, or get some help and spend some money converting it. I would try to get it working as well as I could first. Have you tried a range check? Get someone to hold the boat while you walk away with the controller and see how far it will work... and the next time you take it to the pond, ask one of the experienced modellers if they can help a bit...
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IMPACT-RNLI-SEVERN-RADIO-CONTROL-LIFEBOAT-RNLB-VOLUNTEER-SPIRIT-GREAT-CONDITION/264428640626?hash=item3d912cd972:g:8OYAAOSwrdRdUWr8
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    πŸ“ Night Watch
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Never 'eard of Ernie.
    "The disadvantage is that internal space is severely limited by the egg-box structure and sub-deck."
    Ernie's design sounds kinda complicated so not exactly EzeBuild!

    Ah. Then you need to read this page: http://eezebilt.tk/History.html 😊

    And possibly this one? http://eezebilt.tk/making.html
    http://eezebilt.tk/History.html
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    http://eezebilt.tk/making.html
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    πŸ“ Night Watch
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    "Looked through your Eezebilt plans ..."
    In some ways they remind me of Glynn Guest balsa boat plans....

    I'd hoped that they would remind you of Ernie Webster's plans, since that's what they are intended to emulate!

    Webster predates Guest by about 30 years, and his balsa designs feature locating tabs and an internal 'eggbox' structure made from interlocking slotted bulkheads. In some ways this is similar to Les Rowell's construction approach - it shares the advantage of not needing a building board because it is self-jigging.

    But Webster took the distribution of mechanical strength even further. In particular, his keels are no more than another bulkhead - longitudinal, admittedly, but they are not major stress members, and do not act as datums. Instead, the stresses are spread throughout the whole hull with a complex of interlocking slotted parts, the hull is horizontally divided by a sub-deck which becomes the datum, and typically longitudinal strength is provided by two box structures either side of the centre-line rather than the keel.

    This design produces a very stiff but lightweight hull. The disadvantage is that internal space is severely limited by the egg-box structure and sub-deck. An interesting comparison is with the contemporaneous competitor Model Aerodrome 'Marinecraft' kits, which used a sub-deck but also a very strong keel, and had more internal space. Webster's keels were almost an afterthought - they were added well after the hull had been created....

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    πŸ“ RC it ??
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Size? It looks as if the stern seat by the transom is an enclosed space? If so, a modern micro radio would fit - though you may need to use button cells or a phone LiPo.

    For tiller control, consider closed loop like this. The test rig displayed is about 5" long...

    http://eezebilt.tk/IMG_3145.jpg
    http://eezebilt.tk/IMG_3145.jpg
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    LiPo
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    πŸ“ Night Watch
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    "...even less of a clue than I do and wouldn't dare even look at one...."

    Humans can do anything they think they can do. The converse also applies.

    This is a generalisation of Dodgy's EeZeBilt law, which states that any model boat can be recreated in the balsa EeZeBilt style. Unless it can't....

    As an example, here is the current state of Martin's fantasy Corvette being realised as an EeZeBilt...
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    πŸ“ Night Watch
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Nowadays you need to understand a lot of things if you are to have a chance of knowing what is going on! This applies as much to computing as to everything else...

    Opera has a good example of this. I use it because it is the most inherently secure of the general purpose browsers - its design team always opt for the most secure default option. A little while ago this was demonstrated when Opera users were unable to connect to some bank sites.

    The reason turned out to be that a crypto key certificate had been revoked. The web uses an encryption technique called a 'public key certificate' to let communicating entities prove who they are, and like all crypto, if a key is compromised it should be revoked, and people should not use it any more. This data is held in a Key Revocation List, which browsers ought to automatically check before accepting a certificate.

    Opera did, and prevented access to sites using the revoked key as a result. Safari, Chrome and Firefox didn't, and allowed compromised access. And there was an initial outcry that Opera must be broken because people couldn't access their banks....

    https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/05/13/how-certificat...
    https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/05/13/how-certificate-revocation-doesnt-work-in-practice.html
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    Opera
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    πŸ“ Night Watch
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Works fine using the Opera browser. This has a built-in proxy server to provide anonymity - maybe this is the reason?
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    πŸ“ What have I got?
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Lighter DXF file now on the web page.

    Note:

    1 - I run vintage everything here. Consequently the DXF file was generated by software from the 1980s, and may have compatibility issues with modern code. If you have problems, tell me, and I'll find a way to update it...

    http://eezebilt.tk/lightplan.html

    2 - The plan was designed for 16"-20" barges to go with the EeZeBilt Beaver. If you go much bigger you will need thicker material or some extra support in the centre to stop a long run of thin material bending. But I guess that you know that anyway...

    3 - Modern lighters - as the Spittalfields reference on the web site illustrates - typically carry freight (usually garbage) in boxes like shipping containers. Perhaps I should make up a plan for those too - but they are a fairly simple shape anyway...
    http://eezebilt.tk/lightplan.html
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    software
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    πŸ“ What have I got?
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    At 30" you probably want to make them out of 1/8" ply. If you just expand the plans you'll need to redraw a few slots and clearances - but that would be easy.

    They have to have a load for ballast - I found that water did a reasonable job and if it sloshed around a bit that made things even more fun to control...

    I'll just stick a dxf download on the website for anyone who wants one...
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    πŸ“ What have I got?
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    This is how they work nowadays - http://spitalfieldslife.com/2011/09/28/among-the-lightermen/
    http://spitalfieldslife.com/2011/09/28/among-the-lightermen/
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    πŸ“ What have I got?
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    "That is a good model of a Thames lighter and I imagine the boat that started this post was very much like it before the wheelhouse was put on.
    Is it available as a kit, or just the plan?"

    It's a standard EeZeBilt 50+ model. That means it's been designed to be cut out of balsa sheet and assembled in the simple EeZeBilt fashion, and the plan has been put out for free download. It's capable of being made at any size or any material, but making it at 16" just nicely uses a single 1m sheet of 1/8"balsa. The idea was to produce simple, quick, cheap model barges so that the tug boys had no excuse not to be pulling a whole string of them.

    If you want it as a kit, I can send you a .dxf file and you can get someone with a CNC machine to do the cutting for you. Do you have a MakerSpace anywhere near you?

    kit
    CNC machine
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    πŸ“ Extra channels
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    I believe that some large model aircraft with multiple engines have a 'Flight Engineer' who is entirely responsible for engine management, with his own separate radio system. But that's rather a special case...
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    πŸ“ What have I got?
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Perhaps someone would like to motorise this:

    http://eezebilt.tk/lightplan.html
    http://eezebilt.tk/lightplan.html
    πŸ”—
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    πŸ“ Extra channels
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Those of us with long memories might recall the difference between the words 'channel' and 'function'.

    Nowadays a 'channel' is thought of as a stream of information dedicated to a single task - such as working a rudder. That stream carries 'proportional' positioning information, and so can be thought of as carrying a set of theoretically infinite positions between 0% and 100%. If it was not used to position a servo, it might be used to control a 100-position switch, for instance!

    In the early days of radio control, we did not have the luxury of multiple channels, each carrying proportional information, sent as a single frame which could be separated out and sent to different servos. We had a signal - it was either on or off. If we wanted to do more than one thing, we had to process the signal ourselves - usually mechanically. One 'channel' meant one signal.

    In its basic form we used an 'escapement' - a bit of mechanics which switched its state once every time it was given a signal pulse. So one pulse would move a bi-directional mechanism from neutral to 'right', and the next pulse would move it to 'left'. For model boats quite complex switching systems could created, driven by a single channel. They were like old telephone dials, whereby a 10-position switch could be pulsed round one click at a time. if you combined that with a mechanical delay on each position you could select one action without initiating all the others - if you were quick!

    More sophisticated kits had multiple channels - giving one switch for left, and another for right, a third for 'up' and so on. Full control of an aircraft needed 8 channels, and you needed some extra ones to give in-flight trim!

    When proportional systems came out the old use of the word 'channel' became redundant - each proportional channel was the equivalent of an infinite number of 'single channels' - and for a while the word 'function' was used. So what would have been a 4-channel transmitter became a 2-function transmitter....

    Nowadays we do everything electrically, but it would be possible to create a mechanical device which would give Martin multiple switches
    running off a single proportional 'function'....

    device
    transmitter
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    πŸ“ Extra channels
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    I'm not sure exactly what you mean - could you give an example of what you might want to do with more detail?

    Do you simply want to install two separate radio systems in one boat and have two radios to control them...?

    radios
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    πŸ“ Wiring help needed.
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    "If you mean your diode strings I'm not sure how they would react to a square waveform or polarity reversal."

    I had covered this earlier - diodes pointing both ways. But limiting the input would work as well. As would programming the Tx.....the key thing is to use a reversible ESC..

    I find that with fast boats I can steer at speed on the trims if they are mechanical...
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    πŸ“ Wiring help needed.
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    What I need to do is to get the thruster to run in 2 directions???

    I thought that you were going to drive a second reversible ESC from the receiver to the thruster, and stick a voltage-dropping line in the ESC output if it was a bit too high?

    ...then combine that channel with the rudder if your transmitter is programmable... if you want them to operate together...

    transmitter
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    πŸ“ Orders from the boss.
    3 months ago by DodgyGeezer ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    A similar variant affects those of us who build static plastic models. I understand that there it is referred to as SABLE.

    Stash Acquired Beyond Life Expectancy....

    models
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