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Hi George, nice to hear from you, dare I ask you have the Fireboat any further on yet!😁 Nice site at Hooton Hangers, but my understanding from epm's post is it was a temporary pool and not there now? I was hoping they had a lake, it would have been a spectacular site. I recall that there was some sailing years ago in raddle wharf on the other side of the museum, over by the hotel. Nice venue again, but very very deep and launching was a problem. Shame to see a club struggling for a venue
Hi Richard its in the thread titled motor problem, its not a big feature, but I think you are going to be tail heavy. The misconception is, sometimes people say, oh its planning, so must be fast, but in actual fact its not going fast at all, its actually the balancer, or more importantly the centre of gravity being off, making the bow rise. A good starting point will be with all deck clutter etc, and all fittings etc how does it sit in the water👍
Hi Richard lovely neat clean installation there, makes things so much nicer to work on when it looks like that. I personally feel your batts will be better in the centre section, similar discussion going on with another thread regarding balance, that stern weigh will cause the bow to raise prematurely, no doubt testing will provide the correct answer Paul
Hi Richard, that lead acid is way too big and heavy. I Remember going on hols as a kid, car was loaded up, all family, roofrack, deck chairs, tent and so on, and Dads old Moggie Traveller would barely climb the Welsh hills! Same here, its just dead weight, ideal for a tug etc, no speed required, and ballast needed. This boat wasn't any slouch in its day, As Havelock says, it was originally built as a ic powered model so could stand being heavy. To achieve balance, its a matter of moving things around, not adding, so just move things forward, you will be surprised how the weight increases once you start adding Deck clutter, fittings and so on. Lightweight, is good. Your comment, stood up in the water at half throttle isn't going fast, its just bad weight displacement causing the bow tyo be too high. That setup would never have been that fast, the motor/battery combo will never cause a heavy ply boat to be going that fast its standing on end Couple of things to consider. Your nimhs, how many times have these been cycled, and what sort of charger are you using? A reasonable charger will give the information, if I know what you are using, Ill advise accordingly as you might not be getting the best from these batteries what prop are you on Think of an rc plane (if you fly them its easier) If the cog is too far back, the nose is pitching up, and its almost impossible to control, it almost porpoises in the air, and is very bad. COG is vital on a rc plane, nose heavy is better, only because its more controllable. COG is equally important with a boat, but harder to see the implications, the hull will give us false info, such as if the bow is up its on the plane, no, not necessarily, its not planing due to speed, its just out of balance. Shifting the weight radically will let you see this, sorry for the ramble, Wish you where closer to me I would love to help hands on👍 Ive tried to find a suitable video of my Huntman to display what I'm rambling on about. This video is poor quality, but it displays that boat moving very fast (25mph with on board data logger) but look how flat it is, its planning, as the forward 1/3 of the hull is out of the water, but its not standing on its tail, this is because its balanced. You boat is pretty similar in design to this so whilst you wont want to go this fast, the picture should look the same. This Huntsman weighs 6kg with batteries (lipos, you will NEVER get a nimh or lead acid to do this) and is 4 foot long, so quite a heavy old girl first constructed as an IC model in the early 70's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5-YmmElIfk&t=34s and here is a picture of my 3 foot aerokits fireboat, bow up, is it planing, no, its way out of balance, it wasnt actaully going that fast Hope that helps Paul
yeah I agree Richard, I sort of went away from topic there. I've had a look in the man shed, I have some 4ba taps, so if you need some props, get some mm ones (poss 3mm as 4 mm is bigger?) and if you need them I can drill and tap for you. Also, if you use a cheap plastic prop, you can use a 4ba nut on the shaft with some thread lock, and lock the 4mm prop up against it. Pity you are not closer, I would have done it for you whilst here. Good luck! Paul
the good news is, (I should have mentioned this earlier), the contributors here are generally experienced, and have done it themselves, so rest assured everything you get is proven, you just need to pick out what is best for you. Some other forums are not as lucky, as you get a lot of "do this, try this", you go out spending the dosh, and the "advisor" when challenged has not actually done it himself, its just a load of crap.😡 really annoys me that this happens, and sometimes people on model shops can be just as bad. A mate of mine took his sons "toy" boat to a local model shop last year. His son had outgrown it, my mate wanted to paint it, make it his own, and ditch the "toys r us" running gear. I didn't know he had done this, when I saw what had been done, the money charged, we marched back to the shop, I gave the "expert" the crap back, and got a refund. 2nd hand 27mg 2 channel rx with the aerial chopped to 6 inches, a 4x1.5 aa battery holder for main propulsion, and a really tired 2 channel acoms 27mg tx £75😡 I found out when he asked me why the lights don't work from the tx like my boats, he had asked for this, 2 channel set, hmm.... later that month, with a 7.2v nims and a dx6 with now 6 channels, less than £50, experts eh! I know there are good, but this shop or at least the guy working there wasn't one of them
here is the problem Richard, when you ask for advise on an open forum, you get a few individual takes!😁 IMO, its not so much the motor at this stage, its the ba thread thing. You can stick a Ferrari v12 in there, but you still need to consider how to attach the thing that is actually going to drive you along, a prop, be it 2, 3 or more blades Whilst buying the 850 motor, take the boat into the shop and get the bearings for your outer tube, and a new mm stainless shaft, and any couplings that are needed. If the outershaft is a size that will not accommodate any new bearings, then it will have to come out, regardless of the motor (don't forget a mount) that you buy. The suggested nylon 2 blade prop sizes that Havelock has posted in the motor spec are what I suggested a few days ago. Don't forget, that spec etc is generic, its not going to be "fit all" its down to you to test and establish what works best for your boat, we don't know its weight, and the condition of your batteries etc.
Hi Richard, molegrips to get the lot out, outershaft and all, its very painful, squeeze tight and twist, you will be supruised how it comes out with some tapping. You could get the bearings out of the top and bottom of your existing shaft, if they look like black plastic, put the shaft in, catch the edge from inside and knock out, they are opush fit, then replace with new 4mm/5mm aceteal, (no doubt spelt wrong)a quid or so each, and are water lubricated. SHG Marine do all of this, they are good at props. If they look metal, they will be either brass, or bronze, and you will prob have to heat the end of the shaft. Try the tapping method, you might get lucky. so now, original outershaft still in place, no bearings either end, and you need a new mm shaft, get stainless. The trick is now, getting bearings to fit if its a real old shaft. Is a good time now to fit an oiler tube whilst everything is out, and clean using thinners etc any gungle inside the shaft. After all this, its not much more effort to get the old one out, and epoxy a new one in, you can buy it complete with inner and outer shafts, bearings, and the right thread, and a couple of test props whilst the wallet is out! Never said it was going to be easy😜
Dave, mtroinks have switches, so maybe when it had the pair of vipers, they where for the esc's? I would disconnect the red signal wire from the receiver end on the "y" harness, and use a separate 6v receiver supply, I have a number of twin screw setups, with a cheap battery monitor, if the esc fails, you still at least have rudder control, if the feed esc goes down, power is lost to the receiver, ensure you have a failsafe set at zero throttle. With spectrum, its usually automatic, unless...... you have reversed the throttle! that means you throttle will go wide open in event of esc failure. Easy test, on the bench, all set up to go, make sure all the props etc are clear, just turn your transmitter off, see what happens, nothing should! Have you done the range test? you might have been lucky having it go in reverse, Also, the gunner that is holding the esc wire, is he wearing a Teflon glove? His hand might get hot
Hi Richard I'm going to be blunt here, no intention to offend, but, You get a donation of some random ancient 4BA prop, you are no further on, as you are stuck with one prop. You have yet to decide which size prop will suit, and, as time goes by, and you consider updating your drive train, that 4BA is going to continually hold you back. Get it out, a new propshaft, 4mm, or even 5mm (all my boats run 5mm) might even fit your original outershaft and away you go. Slightly off topic, but, the cost of very average brushed motors and yesterday technology is now more expensive than Brushless, which is way more efficient, I wonder how much longer the model shops can survive touting this over priced dated equipment, RC Boats is the only RC discipline holding on to this out of date technology. Back on topic!🤐 You could also see if you have any room to cut the threaded end off, and visit the local engineering shop, get them to thread the end 4mm or whatever suits. I remember beiung in exactly the same position on my first serious boat, my 36" aerokits Fireboat, build in the sixties by my uncle. I was with my mate, and mentor, having the exact same conversation, I was holding on, saying I'm not changing the shaft, he dropped something on the floor, I bent down, when I stood up, he had a pair of molegrips dragging the propshaft out, I could have cried, but never looked back. I then did extensive testing with a load of cheap props, and when I got it sorted, treated myself to a real nice brass prop, size based on the testing results👍
for the purpose of testing, don't go out and buy expensive props, just buy cheap plastic two blade ones, I always use "x" blade, they are a coarser pitch, "s" blade are less pitch. Get a few to test, 35mm, 40mm, 50mm. Fit, short run, see how hot things are. Whilst you don't want to go fast, don't forget this is a big heavy old girl, its better to be overpowered than under powered. If it was me, I would get a graupner 700, watercool with a cooling coil, probably settle with 45 to 50mm two blade "x" prop, run on 12v, this will give some speed and durability. Don't assume that just because the model shop suggested it, its the holy grail, many many times we have seen evidence of very poor advice given by so called experts😡 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Graupner-Speed-700-Turbo-Electric...
sorry to state the obvious, but sometimes the obvious can get overlooked. Have a google and see if the model of mtroniks esc can power two motors, or give them a ring, then you can eliminate one esc, see what happens
I've breezed through this so apologies if I missed something. There is no way the boat will magically go into reverse when transporting from the bench to the water. If it works on the bench, it will work in the water, out of interest, how do you know its going the right way on the bench? you might have the props on the wrong way around if directional, so its actually going in reverse on the bench. You can run multiple motors with one spectrum receiver, I have done it several times, with boats and planes, so its not that. Your later posts suggest more is amiss here, it could be a signal issue, as you say it sometimes works? Have you done a range test? If you have not, This needs to be the very next job you do. Not knowing specificallky what tx you have, eg the dx6i has a built in range test, and needs to be done from all angles, and should work at least 20 metres from the boat. This needs to be a must on all models. I do this every time I sail or fly, every time, I don't want to lose a model due to signal loss, which depending on the failsafe being set, can result in full throttle and loss of control, that's another topic I suppose! Mtrokiks are pretty much bullet proof, forget those Chinese blue things, the issue isn't the escs, its the set up. Get the mixer out, use a "y" lead between the receiver leads, disconnect both red wires, and use a separate receiver 6v feed into the receiver, plug in the esc's, watch the lights to see if they set ok (assuming you have throttle range set them separate first), then range check, nw throttle on the bench, one at a time, with a tissue behind the prop to ensure they are going the correct way, belive me when I say its an easy mistake to make thinking a twin set up has both props with the correct direction when one isn't!😊 I see you are at Bury, thats a big well established club, has anybody there taken a look for you, seeing it in action is so much easier than over a keyboard! If you fancy a trip to the Wirral Ill gladly sort it for you Paul
don't know why I thought you where lake district? Yeah, I went to the first few, out Derby way, it was great fun, run by the God of Fireboats, Peter Dimberline, but then other boats crept in, and the theme was lost. This website was originally only for aerokits Fireboats, but had to grow to survive, as we are the few!
Hi Doug (time for bed now!) dont know to this day what it was, water was high, it was winter, its a big lake, no sign of something floating, but it was a right loud whack! It was in my home town of Liverpool, so maybe was a stolen car or shopping trolley dropped in the lake!😁 I was convinced it was a right off, luckily it survived! (you had a much better description of the skeg!)
Neil, the suggestions about prop support are all valid, just different takes on things. I would (if you intend to repaint the hull) sand off to key, or prime the old paint prior to installing the shaft, as it will be easier to repaint and prep. Question, sorry if I missed this, is that a new shaft with new bearings? If not get new from shg marine (they are at the Blackpool, show, and the midlands engineering show if you can get to either, I'm not sure where you are?) they are dirt cheap, called aceteal or something similar, they water lubricate, and cost about £2 each. Roll the inner shaft on a piece of glass or a mirror, this will tell you if its bent, any sign of this, get a new one, or you might have alignment and vibration issues. (glass is totally flat! there's a free tip to test you prop shafts ha ha !!👍) same can be bought from shg, and get stainless. Back to the support, the thing Dave mentions is a piece of wood that fits between the hull, and the shaft. The shaft is then epoxied to this, giving support, but it wont be true to original. You have the original support, so remodel this to fit your new angle. If you use any bolts etc to secure, use stainless so they don't rust. Once painted, it will be hidden, and its underneath anyway so cant be seen. It will need to be tight to the outershaft, once positioned, you could solder, as they are both brass, and either feed into the hull bend over and epoxy, or screw as per original. Here is my big fireboat, its twin, but the concept is the same, the support came into the hull, and on this example, I put a brass pin through, and epoxied it all
ha, got you! check this out Doug! Huntsman, single screw, with prop support, A simple brass strip, epoxied into the hull. Sailing around, Wham! something just under the water, fuzzy picture but the shaft bent (and its a 5mm stainless one) rudder as you see, without internal and external support, that hull would have cracked, boat could have sunk. I get what you say, but its at the build stage that you (builder) can decide what to do prior to painting etc. The twin screw pic was just for reference, I didn't have a pic of the same thing for single screw, but its each to their own, and we all have a different view on things, which is great👍
I love boxes! Kind of "finishes things off", especially as I knock things about with my clumsy hands, 😁 Now stop chickening out, and get it dunked😜 Are you going to Blackpool? All being well I'm going, we can have a Fireboat special handshake club!😉
that angle is way better, give yourself a bit of room for a bigger prop, say your 40mm, just incase. For reference, here is my original set up with a brushed 700 motor, direct drive, it ran hot! then I used a gearbox, it ran cooller, but the boat was getting very heavy by now. Currently its a brushless direct drive, its been ignored for a few years now, I must get it out and use it again. Its an original Aerokits, built in 1963 by my Uncle as a straight runner ic, the ended up in my parents attic for 30 years
what a rip off that is, its just a simple strip of brass, make it yourself Neil, it will also give more satisfaction when you do it yourself, and save £9!! Not to compromise other opinions, but I think you need some sort of prop support, even single screw. If you are ham fisted like me, it can get knocked, dropped, or could hit something in the water. With no support, the "knock" can cause structural damage inside the hull, I'm always knocking my models with clumsy hands, so always "over engineer" things so they don't fall off! . Dave suggested a fillet under the prop, that would work, it doesn't have to be anything more complicated, however the real boat was this (pic) its got a support like the one you bought👍 so it depends how accurate you want to be
Ill chip in! Pictures tell a story. Ok, a twin shaft, but the principle is the same. Imagine the angle of shaft you have, then propeller is pushing up, get it a shallow angle, and its now pushing forward. On the 34" fireboat, largest prop you will end up with is 50mm, so cut a dics 50mm, attach to your shaft, with a flat on it so it sits on the hull, viola, here is your prop angle👍 Prop support, use a strip of brass, heat it, and bend around same diameter rod (as your outer shaft, not on the shaft as the heat could damage the bearings), clamp together and either solder or use a small nut and bolt, fit through a slot in the hull, and then bend the side over, like wings, inside the hull, and epoxy. Paul Fit a water pick up, its easier at the build time, than regretting it later, you don't have to use it if its not necessary
New Brighton (Wirral), Hoylake, West Kirby (Ashton Park) Gautby Road (Birkenhead) all on the Wirral Peninsula, and all within 30 mins of each other, are public lakes, anyone can sail on them, with the exception of ic and I believe only NB allows steam. Gautby road will allow ic, they have a club that races there on certain days. Out of courtesy, if the clubs are in attendance, its nuce to say hello. Ashton Park is an ornamental lake with wildlife, so sailing area is a bit restricted, and you can get a lot of public "tut tuts" if sailing in nesting season etc. This lake might have private permission, and tbh isn't worth the mither when the other lakes are so close. Gautby road is by far the best, however in an area that attracts a load of kids, and the odd "tinny" drinker. I go there with an eye to the surroundings, if you know what I mean, its got one way in, one way out, but is a fantastic lake with water that is right to the top. Hop through the Mersey tunnel, and you also have newshaw Park in Liverpool, 20 mins away, big lake with a club, and public. We are well served in this area👍 To give you an idea of the lakes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DUO2JS8FfY My 4 ft Fireboat at Hoylake (that box has now been removed) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5-YmmElIfk My 4 ft Huntsman at Gautby Road (not great quality sorry)
Hi Richard your motor has a big 8mm shaft, have you thought about how you are going to connect to your propshaft? It might be too late now, but the early ic shafts where a steep angle, and really a bit far forward under the hull. Imagine the propeller is pushing up, rather than forward. If not too late (its actually not as daunting as you might think) you could do with altering the angle, so the propeller is close to the hull. Work on the fact that 55mm "x" prop will be the biggest, you will end up with 50mm or 52.5mm 👍 I did a lot of testing with my 4 foot 28, hulls are the same almost, we just have to now consider your battery and the resulting amp draw as your esc and motor are rated at 60a
I need a sub! tried it many times and failed. All I want is a dorsal fin, and tail fin to resemble a shark, and the top of the hull/body. Needs to be 18 inches or so. I want it to submerse to dorsal fin depth, forwards, left and right. I have am mmb subsonic hull, an auto leveller, the tx and rx, just cant sort it. (some pics attached) Anybody have something to sell, or want a commission build? Thanks Paul