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    BLUENOSE
    63 Posts ยท 17 Followers ยท 59 Photos ยท 297 Likes
    Began 6 months ago by
    Sub-Lieutenant
    Canada
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    Latest Post 6 days ago by
    Sub-Lieutenant
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    ๐Ÿ“ sailing 6 channel
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 21 Views ยท 2 Likes ยท 1 Comment
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    Ah, Mr Holmes, you saw through my attempt to misled you with a very thorough answer to only half the question!

    The second half

    Why?

    Firstly, to see if it could be done. Could a 6 channel vessel be put together and operate as hoped? The evidence for and against is still being gathered. More later.

    Secondly, 52 years ago I created my own design of schooner, much smaller and simpler. It sailed in breezes I couldn't even feel, a good light wind boat. Total sailing time on that hull might have been 2 hours before life got in the way and it was left behind (ROSEBUD).
    Now I have all the time in the world

    Thirdly. my design time greatly exceeds my sailing time. So I need lessons and practise. The local model sailing club has been very generous with their time, knowledge, and experience. They have shown me that even the simple 2 channel class racing boats are tuned to performance. Millimeters and grams count in winning races. So, minute changes in configuration, greatly change performance. I have spent most of my career working with and against wind and water, constantly readjusting to adapt. I can now do it as a hobby.

    I carry the adjust-adapt philosophy with me to the boat.

    The more adjustments that you can control, the better the adaption to the conditions, and the better the performance. I have seen your work displayed here, you do strive for better performance. Your construction performance is art. With more sail controls you can improve your sailing performance. Be it better sailing in light winds (my staysail), faster speed (adjusting the slots between the sails for optimal flow), faster tacking (controlling the jibs), sailing closer to the wind (each sail will have its own optimal setting for maximum force). In the end, it will be how pleased you are with your better performance. You have achieved that with your construction performance. Are you ready to take it to your sailing performance?

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: sailing 6 channel
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 19 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    Sounds like three good reasons to me, Ross. Especially the first one.
    The choice is not irreversible and you can reduce the control to fewer channels (if you deem it appropriate or simply for comparison) very easily.
    I await your response on this matter with curiosity.
    After the water tests you will be able to tell me (from your direct experience) what the advantages and disadvantages are.
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    ๐Ÿ“ 6 servos
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 22 Views ยท 3 Likes ยท 1 Comment
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    Alessandro,
    In my 'previous' life (sounds a little Buddhist, doesn't it) operating a skid steer loader (BOBCAT S70 LOADER, if you want to Google it) required left heel control, left toe control, right heel control, right toe control, left arm control, right arm control, strapped into the bouncing machine in a roll cage. ( one of my operator flipped one on its side, they got it back upright on their own and didn't tell me for 2 weeks). To transport this equipment on a truck in a snowstorm, was up 2 ramps 45cm wide, backwards, in the dark about two thirds of the time. I had about 2000 hours on skid steers. I could go on further about 14 hours days in a plow truck, it's boring. Sailing 6 channels is a retirement holiday requiring 2 thumb control and 2 fore finger control. enough of my rant

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: 6 servos
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 21 Views ยท 1 Like
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    Excellent Ross, it couldn't be clearer than that.
    You are an excellent pilot and steering six channels will be a breeze for you. I understand this, I envy you and admire your abilities a lot.
    But let's leave Ross the driver for a moment and talk to Ross the builder.
    If I (for my next project) wanted to follow your philosophy, what practical advantages would I have in controlling the sails selectively?
    I'm asking you because I would like to make improvements and any advice is useful.
    ๐Ÿ“ SPRING STAY
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 28 Views ยท 4 Likes ยท 1 Comment
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Add Comment
    - CAPTAIN! CAPTAIN! I'VE JUST HAD AN APOSTROPHE!!

    - I THINK YOU MEAN AN EPIPHANY!!

    -RIGHT! RIGHT!

    I can run the STAYSAIL up the SPRING STAY, which runs between the lower FORE MAST, at the trestle, and the MAIN TOPMAST and carries the STAYSAIL!!! Just retract it backwards up the SPRING STAY

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: SPRING STAY
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 25 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    Hi Ross, I read your answer on the channels and I must say that I too would have difficulty commanding a ship having to operate on six channels.

    In addition to being a good builder, you are a skilled pilot, very good.
    Why did you make this choice?
    I'm interested to know (for my future projects) why so many servos and why so many dedicated channels (five winches and five channels if I understand correctly).
    For the winches I figured you wanted to make sure you had the right strength.
    For the five channels I didn't imagine an explanation because I didn't find any advantages in controlling the sails individually.

    However, I can't wait to see the drawings to understand how you laid out the winches and what the rope system looks like.
    ๐Ÿ“ SERVOS
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 28 Views ยท 3 Likes ยท 2 Comments
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    Flaxbybuck

    Question:

    Was your problem proper controls for all 6 servos or eye hand coordination for appropriate stick/switch for appropriate servo at the exact instant it was needed?

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: SERVOS
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 25 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    Yes, I used to find it would take 10 hours of operation to get to the point that I didn't have to think about it, just do it. Skid steers and snow plow trucks
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: SERVOS
    6 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง flaxbybuck ( Captain)
    โœง 27 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    The latter Ross. Remembering which control to use for the desired purpose. Each time I went to the lake it would take me at least 30 minutes to remember what to do; sometimes much longer. But then, at my age everything takes longer, and sometimes doesn't happen at all !! ๐Ÿ˜‰
    ๐Ÿ“ servos
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 34 Views ยท 4 Likes ยท 3 Comments
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    Alessandro

    I will be up to 6 servos:

    1 JIB TOPSAIL & JIB
    2 JUMBO JIB
    3 FOREMAST SAILS
    4 STAYSAIL
    5 MAINMAST SAILS
    6 RUDDER

    I will send the engineering drawings for approval as soon as I get them out of my head. STAYSAIL moving back and forward was never on the original plan but you inspired me to push through๐Ÿ‘!

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: servos
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง flaxbybuck ( Captain)
    โœง 29 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    An interesting concept Ross, 5 servos serving the sails. I have enough problems using all 6 channels on another boat where non essential things are operated on 4 of the channels, so what it will be like trying to sail your boat using all 6 channels I just can't imagine. Tricky to say the least !
    Good luck . ๐Ÿ˜‰
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: servos
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 32 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    The transmitter is a FLYSKY FS-i6 6 channel, connected to FS-iA6B 6 channel receiver, running 6 servos, (one rudder and 5 winches). 1 servo for each channel.

    3 channels are running 2 sails each
    1 JIB & JIB TOPSAIL
    2 FORESAIL & FORE TOPSAIL
    3 MAINSAIL & MAIN TOPSAIL 6 sails
    2 channels are running 1 sail each
    1 JUMBO JIB
    2 STAYSAIL 2 sails

    8 sails when the STAYSAIL control is complete
    5 WINCHES
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: servos
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 32 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    Ross this job gets more and more interesting. Will you have the possibility to dedicate a radio channel for each one or will some be connected together with the receiver?
    ๐Ÿ“ STAYSAIL
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 36 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Add Comment
    Sorry Alessandro about translation. I will try a simpler explanation for the translator
    The luff of the STAYSAIL moves back to the MAINMAST from the FOREMAST

    The FORESAIL moves to the opposite side when tacking or jibing.

    The luff of the STAYSAIL moves back to the FOREMAST from the MAINMAST

    I am working on the engineering and construction to make this work. I think it can be done with only one more servo and mechanical parts

    ๐Ÿ“ Staysail reset
    8 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 39 Views ยท 2 Likes ยท 1 Comment
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    Alessandro,

    I will direct this puzzle to you,but leave it open to everyone. . .

    To re-set the STAYSAIL to the other side of the FORESAIL, the luff would have to be detached from the FOREMAST, brought behind the FORESAIL and reattached to the FOREMAST on the opposite side. The STAYSAIL would be operating on a similar closed loop system to the jibs, with port and starboard sheets. It would be a similar idea to the jibs around the forward stays, BUT with the additional problems of taken BACKWARD around the FORESAIL and the FORESAIL is moving. The forward stays are fixed

    The leach could remain attached to the MAINMAST at all times.

    Do you have any insights or inspirations?

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: Staysail reset
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 37 Views ยท 1 Like
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    Hi RossM, sorry but the translation brought back some illogical sentences.
    I don't think I fully understand how you want to maneuver the staysail.

    I didn't come up with any good ideas for maneuvering the foresail and topforesail despite the presence of the staysail.
    I tried to imagine a system but the running rigging would still get in the way even with the sail folded up.

    This theme on staysails interests me a lot because I have never used them (unlike jibs for which I had devised my own method).
    I'm really curious to see how your system works.

    I hope someone can give you more qualified opinions.
    ๐Ÿ“ Jib Sheets winch
    9 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 47 Views ยท 7 Likes ยท 2 Comments
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    Alessandro,

    The JIBS WINCH. It is made up of Motor, Gearbox and 2 Spools.

    The JIB TOPSAIL (top jib) and JIB (middle jib) will be operated from this winch

    The left spool would pull in the port sheet, while the right spool will let out the starboard sheet. The motor is reversable

    The JIB TOPSAIL sheets (port and starboard) will be pulled over the JIB STAY.
    The JIB sheets (port and starboard) will be pulled over the JUMBO JIB STAY

    Keep up the questions Alessandro, if I can't explain it, I have probably done something wrong

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: Jib Sheets winch
    8 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 39 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    Alessandro,
    Thank you for the continuing questions. Yes. You have identified a definite problem.
    1. Starting at the winch, I chose a winch speed that would allow fast enough speed for the sheets.
    2. I tested the winch with a 2 kilogram weight. It passed the test.
    3. I was told to NEVER use twisted string/thread for a sheet. It will wrap up and twist. The photo shows heavy twisted thread and the braided cord. What I chose was a braided nylon cord approximately 1.5mm diameter. It is commonly used as cord on window blinds and is available in large quantities for a reasonable price. It is similar design to braided lines used on many full sized boats
    4. The lines running below deck will be contained in plastic tubes from just beyond the winch to the surface of the deck. Hence the need for overpowered winches, to compensate for the string/plastic pipe friction.
    5. As for the 2 upper jibs, they are on a closed loop system of starboard-port sheets.

    Please, keep the challenging questions coming. You will find a place where I have slipped up. (I have done again 2 of the sails for critical errors that I caught)
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: Jib Sheets winch
    8 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 44 Views ยท 1 Like
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    Thank you very much RossM for your explanations, everything is clear to me now.

    In reality, what was happening above deck was already very clear beforehand but I had many doubts about what was happening below deck. Now thanks to your descriptions it is much clearer.

    However, I wanted to ask you one more question, but you didn't do anything wrong, absolutely, it's just my curiosity, I hope it won't bother you.
    Keep in mind that I like many models being worked on on this forum but I consider some to be more interesting because they are more difficult.
    Commanding all these sails is not a given and yours is one of the most difficult jobs to complete.


    I wanted to know if you have already tested this system for jibs before or not. I'm asking you because initially I too thought of this system, as it was much more realistic.
    But then I gave up due to the various difficulties I couldn't deal with: firstly I had too little space, secondly I feared that this system would only work in theory because in practice the sheets (as thin as mine) would get tangled.
    You certainly have more space as it is a very large model but I don't know how you will manage the second problem.
    What worries me is that the sheet is not under tension when it loosens (unless you count on the traction of the wind which however is not a certain guarantee of strength or constancy), but only when it is furled.
    I'm curious to see how you'll do it (because I'm sure you've already found the solution or will find it) and learn.
    ๐Ÿ“ boat length
    10 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 50 Views ยท 2 Likes ยท 6 Comments
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    Flaxbybuck, It's either 72 inches or 72 cm's. I keep getting the units mixed up

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: boat length
    7 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 36 Views ยท 0 Likes
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    Ok Ross, I think I understand, you were very clear (this time I didn't use the translator and it was better).

    The doubt that remained with me was this: when the staysail is gathered back towards the mainmast (to ensure that the FORESAIL moves to the opposite side when tacking or jibing) aren't there still two running riggings left (between the foremast and mainmast) to prevent this manoeuvre?
    Maybe they will be stretched enough to not stop the movement?

    However I have the impression that when I see the system in action or in a drawing I will say: "ah that's how it worked! Well done Ross".

    Do you mean just one servo (besides the one for the jibs) for all the other sails? A total of two servants for the whole ship?
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: boat length
    9 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 48 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    "I was teasing", certo.
    Well I thought of 183 cm by eye, you measured it, it doesn't apply. Joke.

    About that:
    "The JIB TOPSAIL will need to be pulled over the mainmast forestay, so 2 sheets, port and starboard, will be needed to handle the JIB TOPSAIL. Likewise, the JIB will need to be pulled over the foremast, requiring so 2 sheets, port and starboard, to handle the JUMBO runs quite normally with its JIB BOOM."

    I don't think I understood very well due to the translation. A drawing would be useful.
    However, if I haven't misunderstood, your system seems valid to me but very difficult to create as an RC model.
    If I'm not misunderstanding, I thought about doing it that way too but then I gave up.
    In practice it is very similar to the real system. I couldn't do it like this, have you seen what mine is like?
    Maybe you pass the sheets through two different holes and control them with a spool below deck?
    Ah! Maybe I understand, you exploit the already existing closed loop.
    A sheet is bullshit and a sheet is pulled.
    I can not wait to see it. I will learn a lot and I could probably copy you in the future.


    You wrote:
    "I don't think there is enough time to change it during tacking."

    So for you it's just a matter of time. You are very ahead of me, because I really can't imagine how I could do it in an RC model, even having all the time available.
    When sailing I would find no other solution than to remove it so as not to prevent the foresail and top foresail from changing tack.

    However this model becomes more and more interesting and I can't wait to see it in the water.
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: boat length
    9 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 48 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    Hi Flaxybybuck, these explanations on your seafaring terms in English are very useful to me, thank you.
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: boat length
    9 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง flaxbybuck ( Captain)
    โœง 47 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    Blimey Ross, if you are not sure whether you are using metric or imperial units you are likely to be in a lot of trouble !

    A staysail is the first sail in front of any mast. On a two masted vessel a staysail could be bent to each mast, so one is called the 'fore staysail' being the staysail attached to the foremast whilst a staysail attached to the main topmast is called the main topmast staysail.

    You are quite correct in thinking this sail would be the first brought down if the wind increased because it is the last of the sails to be bent in light airs, hence it would be the first to be furled as wind speed increases.

    So your hull is about six feet long. That is a large boat, and nineteen square feet is a lot of sail ! I am looking forward to seeing it raised, and the boat on the water, and wish you good luck sailing her. ๐Ÿ˜‰
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: boat length
    10 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 47 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    71.5 inches 181.61 cm I was teasing

    The JIB TOPSAIL will have to be pulled over top of the mainmast stay, thus requiring 2 sheets, port and starboard, to manage the JIB TOPSAIL. Similarly, the JIB will have to be pulled over the top of the foremast stay, thus requiring 2 sheets, port and starboard, to manage the JIB. The JUMBO is done quite normally with it's JIB BOOM.

    What you refer as VELLA DI STRALLO I know as the STAYSAIL. Yes, this is an issue, as you say. I have seen movies of the old schooners with the STAYSAIL on the 'wrong' side. I would think if vessel is just doing short tacking they would leave it on the 'wrong' side. I don't think there is enough time to change it during tacking. Sailing in small ponds, I would set the STAYSAIL, with the best position for the wind that day on the pond. I got the idea that the STAYSAIL would be the first sail brought down as the wind increased, so it may not be a major issue

    The sail area is somewhere around 19 square feet, or 1.8 square meters
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: boat length
    10 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Rear Admiral)
    โœง 50 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    Hi RossM.

    There is a big difference between 72 and 183 cm. From the photos he seems more like 183 cm but maybe I'm deceiving myself because I don't have a person as a reference.

    In any case, you have a considerable sail area, magnificent.
    If you manage to optimize lateral stability it will have a nice boost thanks to this wing.

    However, I have a doubt: the main topmast sail for real ships can be maneuvered by the crew but in an RC model I think it creates problems.
    When there is a tack change this sail could prevent the foresail and top foresail from changing angle.
    How do you plan to solve it? What system did you come up with?
    For the same problem I found a solution for the Jib but you also have the Flying jib and it won't be easy (but still possible).


    To avoid any misunderstanding, I indicate with the red arrow what we call the "vela di strallo", main topmast sail.
    ๐Ÿ“ SAIL PLAN
    10 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RossM ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    โœง 53 Views ยท 3 Likes ยท 1 Comment
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Add Comment
    I think we're going to need a bigger boat . . .

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: SAIL PLAN
    10 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง flaxbybuck ( Captain)
    โœง 52 Views ยท 2 Likes
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    You have plenty of sail there Ross. Remind us how large your boat hull is ๐Ÿ˜‰
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