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    HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    7 Posts ยท 5 Followers ยท 38 Photos ยท 36 Likes
    Began 26 days ago by
    Petty Officer 2nd Class
    Canada
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    Latest Post 21 days ago by
    Petty Officer 2nd Class
    Canada
    Most recent posts shown first   (Show Oldest First) (Print Booklet)
    ๐Ÿ“ HMS Pert paddle motors
    21 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RPLedm ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 17 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    I am going to build another Pert now that I have an idea of what to do and I have started that quest by buying two more motors at $10 each from Princess Auto in London ON. As I said earlier these only come as a Left Hand model and have to be disassembled and rotated to become a RH model. To do that I removed the four screws on the worm gear shaft end and screwed it onto the other side. They have identical screw hole locations but are mirror images of each other. I also replaced the through screws with longer ones in order to attach the motor to a bracket which in turn will be attached to the ship. I had a peek at the brush end and discovered it has a nice little circuit (snubber) to prevent arcing and Radio Frequency Interference (RFI). However that seems to play badly with the 2kHz signal from the ESC. More work to do there. The brushes and commutator appear to be brand new. Of course, I had to remove the armature to spring the brushes back onto the commutator. To put the electrical connector in a more accessible position I rotated the body through 180 degrees but had to remove a resin keying pip with a hacksaw and knife..

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    ๐Ÿ“ HMS Pert description at RMG archives/print centre
    22 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RPLedm ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 18 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    I had mentioned that the archives had an incorrect description of one of the drawings. Here is the original description and is a caution that sometimes things just get misfiled .... stuff happens ... and that when researching we should keep an open mind to the possibilities that we may have missed something in spite of our best efforts. Since ordering this print the description has been deleted and, once again, the prints are gorgeous:

    ๐Ÿ“ HMS Pert Admiralty Drawings Have arrived ... and they are beautiful!!!
    23 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RPLedm ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 21 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    DHL delivered my National Marine Museum Thronycroft prints/drawings (a Christmas present to myself) this morning and they are crisp on elegant paper ... works of art I must say.
    0. less than two weeks from order to delivery and at Christmas time too.
    1. solid tube packaging
    2. rolled, no creases
    3. crisp photography and printing and coloured!!
    I had to compete for room on the dining room table!

    ๐Ÿ“ HMS Pert and her rudder
    23 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RPLedm ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 22 Views ยท 2 Likes ยท 1 Comment
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    Pert has independent paddle drive and can therefore spin on a dime (penny?). But getting her to go straight requires balancing her two motors to give roughly equal thrust on each side. It is much simpler to change direction by a limited amount of rudder input than messing with the motor control, be it both motors on one stick or one motor on each stick. Side-wheelers were very appealing to the navy as they could maneuver large aircraft carriers into position, pushing and tugging with great dexterity. They were only replaced when technological changes in design were developed eg. electric drives, bow thrusters and steerable Kort nozzles. Furthermore, every competitive sailor knows that the rudder acts as a Great Big Brake costing seconds to the finish line. That is not a problem here as the only thing on the pond to avoid are those really fast and cheap things in the hands of immat .... OK Rob, cut the Rant! Be nice. ๐Ÿ˜‚

    Pert's rudder uses a miniature servo tucked into her stern, very close to the bell crank. Because there is no propeller shaft and the rudder shaft tube exits above the water line and the hull is solid polystyrene then there is no leakage to worry about.

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert and her rudder
    23 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Vice Admiral)
    โœง 24 Views ยท 1 Like
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    Thanks Rob (RPLedm) for the very thorough answers.

    You put some of the answers by re-editing the same previous message, re-editing it.

    It's very clear to me but maybe someone who reads my question after your answer might be perplexed.

    I saw that you also added the photo with the three capacitors, that's exactly what I meant. Yes, I think this is the best possible configuration; Some people are satisfied with just the capacitor between positive and negative.

    I totally agree with you on the choice of batteries, I also prefer lead batteries (specifically those of the VRLA family of the AGM type). They are cheap and not very demanding. But their low cost compared to the others is the only real plus.

    I agree on the weight as long as the project manages to place them as low as possible, at least below the waterline, but this is not always possible due to the shape of the hull.
    For this reason I prefer the 6 volt ones that are smaller and modulable (in case of need with the series connection I can also have 12 volts from them).

    Surely you already know but you are not forced to use the BEC of the ESC, I find it more advantageous to power the servos and receiver with separate batteries, one dedicated to the receiver-servos and one to the ESC-brushed motor.

    Now I'll stop here with the questions, I don't want to bother you too much, I look forward to further developments and the navigation video when the time comes.
    ๐Ÿ“ HMS Pert and her motors
    24 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RPLedm ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 26 Views ยท 4 Likes ยท 1 Comment
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    I put up some more information about the motors on the original post but there are several requests for more, specifically, how fast.
    How fast is fast? I run my S7 (1/43) trains at scale speeds. I don't like tearing around the layout flat out. It annoys me and damages the loco.
    The motor runs at 180rpm on 12 Vdc. It behaves relatively linearly running at 90 rpm on 6Vdc. I have not altered the gearing. I use Radiolink ESCs, CL9030, one on each motor. I believe that the graph below may be for this motor. I have some work to do on the Radiolink ESC-Motor combination. It goes into an awful noise resonance due to the ESC 2kHz pulse width modulation (PWM) which may be cured with a simple snubber network at the motor terminals. I have to experiment on this. I will scope the ESC tomorrow and report back.
    The combination of this motor and my simple paddle throws too much water at 12Vdc and I trust that a lower voltage will produce a much more rewarding pond experience. We will see. Unfortunately the weather is most inclement at this time of the year in Southern Ontario, resembling at best, gale conditions on the south coast of the IOW. The wind rips across Lake Erie tearing off roof shingles from my house, burying Buffalo in 4 ft snowdrifts and creating a 4ft seiche. The summers are very satisfying though, much better than Lee-on-the-Solent. I have not yet sailed the boat on the pond but if we get a nice sunny day I will shoot a video.
    Can somebody please tell me how to reply to questions and comments which appear below these posts? I don't see a reply button.
    Edits:
    1. Snubber
    A snubber is a filter circuit which reduces ringing or arcing in an inductive circuit. In its simplest form it is a capacitor soldered across the terminals of a motor. More effective snubbers will use a network of passive devices (resistors, capacitors and inductors).
    The most effective snubbers use an elaborate combination of both passive and active devices (eg. specialised diodes)
    A few minutes visiting the site below (electronics.stackexchange.com) would be rewarding.
    2. Battery voltage choice
    I went with a 12V lead acid battery because:
    a. it is cheaper
    b. it is well understood
    c. it is heavy and adds to the ship's low point ballast (metacentric height and all that)
    d. I did not know what to expect as I went along on the electrics so this gave me options (I have never used ESCs before, at the most only three servos for my sailboats)
    e. the Radiolink ESCs have a BEC
    3. About The photo of myself in the Lab at the college: Note the whiteboard: It has the first student experiment+theory on filters ๐Ÿค”๐Ÿ™„๐Ÿ˜ ... great stuff ... fun to teach.

    To stop Pert from bouncing around like a cork I will have more stuff to say about metacentric height and moment of inertia decisions in my next post ... standby one mike-bravo ...

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: Those motors for Pert
    24 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Vice Admiral)
    โœง 26 Views ยท 1 Like
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    Hi RPLedm, why are you still looking for a way to answer? You already did.
    Not only did you answer promptly but you did it in a very thorough way and I thank you, I really like detailed and informative answers.

    But before I get into the merits of the question, I welcome you on my behalf to this site, I am really happy that there are people like you (the photo of your lab has favorably impressed me and I like to learn).
    I signed up to this site, skillfully administered by Stephen (Fireboat), thanks to AndyN's report more than a year ago.
    You must excuse my English, but I use Google Translate.

    In your exhaustive description you anticipated some of my questions.
    I imagined that the motors can be controlled separately.

    What do you mean by "snubber network"? I was unable to translate snubber. From my personal experience I imagined that it is three polyester capacitors (not electrolytic), one placed between positive and negative, one between positive and metal casing of the motor and one between negative and metal casing of the motor. Do you mean this configuration?

    Not having experience with naval models with paddle wheels I just imagined that 180 rpm could be a speed (perhaps) too high. You are confirming this to me and, from what I understand, you will reduce the voltage to reduce the initial speed of the electric motors.
    I am sure that this works but, then, if you power everything at 6 volts or 7.2 volts, you no longer need to find an ESC that supports 12 volts, you will find many cheap ones up to 8 volts.

    Two more questions: is the rudder working or will you only use the paddle wheels to turn?
    What type of batteries will you use?

    I can't wait to see your model in the water, when the weather is better.
    ๐Ÿ“ HMS Pert Admiralty Drawings and Paper Chase (also known as research).
    24 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RPLedm ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 27 Views ยท 4 Likes ยท 2 Comments
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    I have decided to build a more accurate and robust model of HMS Pert thus I ordered a set of four Admiralty drawings from the National Maritime Museum at the Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg). These are scaled at 1/4" = 1 ft. that is, 1/48 such that a large surface is required to lay them out flat. The total cost of the set was 239.00GBP plus 20.00GBP shipping. Ouch. Note that on the attached photos the drawings are not on line except for four blurry thumbnails, one of which was included on my original post of HMS Pert. Clicking on the thumbnail image gives you more information ... and the price. Ugh.
    As for why this particular ship, Pert, was selected for printing, I have no idea. But there she is (lucky me) and I did not have to travel 5,000 miles to see them since they are in the Caird Reading Room and none of that material is on line. Are there more drawings? Who knows. Until I ordered a set, the description of the drawing at the museum's website described a 17th century sailing brig. That has since changed. Research can be such a frustrating paper chase. And expensive.
    Furthermore, the thumbnails are not at the rmg. website but rather at a print website:


    https://prints.rmg.co.uk/search?q=pert&type=product
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert Admiralty Drawings and Paper Chase (also known as research).
    24 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Vice Admiral)
    โœง 28 Views ยท 1 Like
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    Hi Mike, this shipyard could have many important ideas for your beautiful ship model.
    Car window motors (if they are new) cost a lot, at least here in Italy. However, they can also be recovered from scrapped cars (and not by stealing them as you jokingly say) at a low price or for free.
    The motor of the ship called Francesca was recovered from an old truck. Those for windshield wipers can also be useful. In this case the advantage is that the gear box for speed reduction is already ready.
    However, I'm not sure if the speed is low enough, I'd be curious to know.
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert Admiralty Drawings and Paper Chase (also known as research).
    24 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Vice Admiral)
    โœง 28 Views ยท 1 Like
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    Hi RpLedm, you wrote that the motors run at 180 rpm; I imagine it is the number of revolutions obtained with the mechanical reduction (I don't think it is the original one of the brush motor), can you confirm it?
    I am ignorant of paddle wheel ship models and assumed it was a high RPM. In your opinion, is the number of revolutions per minute adequate or too fast?
    Can you maintain a realistic speed of your model?
    Do you have any navigation videos you can show us? I would love to see it in action.
    ๐Ÿ“ HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    26 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ฆ RPLedm ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 65 Views ยท 17 Likes ยท 6 Comments
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    Pert was a Robust Class Royal Navy tug that served in both World Wars in several ports along England's southern coast and flew the Blue Ensign. She was constructed by J Thornycroft and commissioned in 1916 then broken up in 1962. During both wars she carried a Navy QF HA 12 pounder gun which was promptly removed at the end of hostilities both times. Her paddles were independent, driven by two double acting steam engines generating 1000 ihp each. She was 178 feet overall, 36 foot beam, 56 feet across paddle boxes, drew 12 ft of water and displaced 1023 tons.

    My scratch built pond model of Pert was started in September this year. She is 47 inches loa, displaces 40 lbs, is "stand-off scale" at 1:48 and is radio controlled. Her hull was assembled from one inch thick polystyrene in the bread and butter method then carved and "rasped" to shape. The finished hull was sheathed in grocery store flyers and a water based varnish then painted with ordinary indoor/outdoor paint. Most of the deck is glued up or soldered from cardstock, foamcore, spruce and brass wire. The paddle drive motors were purchased from an auto surplus store and were initially designed for window openers . They turn at 180 rpm and draw 2Amps when loaded. Although I own two Spectrum transmitters, Spectrum does not sell a an ESC capable of driving a 12Vdc brushed motor so I elected to buy from a newish RC manufacturer, Radiolink which had the system and parts at a reasonable cost. We shall see how that turns out. The paddles themselves are the simplest design I could build and for that I make no apologies since only a vary narrow part of the paddle is visible when in operation. As I said, stand-off scale ๐Ÿ˜Š

    Resources were mainly a precious few photos but I chanced on four thumbnails at the National Maritime museum in Greenwich and these have proved invaluable. Additional information is apparently available in the reading room but this requires either personal, or hired researcher, attendance. At present she rests on a drydock module on my Scale 7 (7mm to the foot) model railway but once spring is here I will trim her out at the pond. After a three month build, and almost finished on the build, I broke down and bought the four plans sheets from the museum print service. Cost me more than the entire build! But I have decided to build her again, this time more accurately and build those paddles out of brass.

    1. (The paddle motors are in stock (2024Dec29) $10 each at Princess Auto, London, Ontario SKU:9102179) The photo below shows a number of 12Vdc geared surplus motors and other goodies like 12Vdc windshield pump motors for draining our ship's bilge.
    2. (The paddle motors are surplus stock intended for auto side widows but are only one hand, as in left and right. Flipping it over to drive the other paddle would cause the gear box to to be high. I had to disassemble one of them to make it right handed or LH depending on your POV and had to remove a plastic keying notch)
    3.(The motor gearbox has a long steel square threaded shaft protruding about 4 inches on which it was easy to mount a 2inch length of wood dowel)
    4.( The complexity of the paddle is fake ... so many projects so little time. The Westbury Feathering Paddle Wheel from Model Engineer is so appealing but it's a hobby in it's own right. I copied the illustration by JDW and pasted it to my paddles ... sketchy, eh? ๐Ÿ˜Ž)
    5.The motors are intended for a duty cycle of about 50% which is 5 minutes on, 5 minutes off. After 30 minutes of running they get quite warm, not enough to boil water but a little uncomfortable to hold. All the same, I get easily bored after 30 minutes driving around the pond.

    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    25 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ญ Mike Stoney ( Commodore)
    โœง 38 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    Hello RP,
    Ciao Alessandro!
    If you don't ask, you don't get an answer, do you ?
    He has already answered most of the questions I would have had, but
    wonder which engine types he used, and from which car model he used them.
    he โ€˜stoleโ€™ them from? Surely someone is driving around without windscreen wipers now? . And in this weather! ๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿคฃ
    Hey RP, tell me this secret! ๐Ÿ™๐Ÿ™๐Ÿ™๐Ÿ™
    The astonished Michel-C.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    25 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฎ๐Ÿ‡น AlessandroSPQR ( Vice Admiral)
    โœง 41 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    Hi RL, thanks for sharing this model of yours. Congratulations for your creation skills and for the very accurate description.

    I'm a bit curious, I'd like to ask you some questions.
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    25 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง tim morland ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 41 Views ยท 3 Likes
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    Lovely Model
    Tim
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    26 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง SimpleSailor ( Warrant Officer)
    โœง 60 Views ยท 5 Likes
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    Are your drive motors made from window wiper motors with the return function removed? They do look like it. I used similar motors on one of my RC tanks.
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    26 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ณ Chuck ( Petty Officer 2nd Class)
    โœง 67 Views ยท 4 Likes
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    Very nice work from both of you! I grew up on the banks of the Ohio River so sternwheeler towboats are in my blood but live in China where paddlewheel boats were commonly used in the 5th century.

    I'm currently in the process of developing the second of a series of sternwheeler kits that cover the gas or diesel boats still paddling the rivers of my home state but mine is based on a chain drive which make for a far simpler setup. Attached is a photo of the real Juanita that the second of our releases which will be 1/24 scale & more manageable in size compared to earlier 1/18 Major released last year.

    I have come across a French builder who made a 3D printed working pitman but will need to look for those files that I saved. Will post later for reference.

    Here's a link to a sternwheeler build that uses a worm gear to drive the wheel but also with a simulated pitman drive for effect.
    https://youtu.be/XE3ifqPe2Nw?si=wn1rD52yDRyxKktP
    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HMS Pert (HMT RNAS Steam Side Paddle Tug)
    26 days ago by ๐Ÿ‡จ๐Ÿ‡ญ Mike Stoney ( Commodore)
    โœง 62 Views ยท 6 Likes
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    Hello RL!
    All respect, beautiful model! But what really caught my eye was your drive.
    Can you tell me more about it or give me some tips please?
    As I am working on a stern wheel steamer, I would prefer this drive. My gear drive is a bit too unreliable. .
    By the way, a happy new year 2025 to you too, best hobbyist wishes from central Switzerland
    Michel-C.
    Ps: First the old very loud version, the new one with integrated gearbox


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