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    7

















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    H.M.S BRAVE BORDERER
    by RHBaker πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦ ( Sub-Lieutenant)
    πŸ“£










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    26 Posts 112 Comments 47 Photos 106 Likes
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    πŸ“ H.M.S. BRAVE BORDERER
    24 days ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Did more testing and then reprogrammed the ESCs and Rx. These changes allowed the removal of the brushless motor selection circuitry and improved the tractability of the system.
    As the videos show, a plane can be achieved with both 2S and 3S batteries. With the 3S the plane is flatter and faster. Suspect this is due to the increased vertical component of the propeller thrust forcing the rear of the vessel upwards, lifting it and lowering the bow. Of the two, the 3S resembles the original vessel pictures more closely, the bow lifts too far high with the 2S.
    The videos show the vessel in motion. The first shows a run with 2S batteries, the next two show similar runs with 3S.
    Just found cannot upload three videos on one blog. Anyway, they can all be seen on UTube under 'Brave Borderer blog'.
    Anticipate further refining of the powertrain with a future running, but doubt any significant improvements will be achieved. Performance is great anyway and am very happy with it.
    This will be the concluding post for this model.

    batteries
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S. BRAVE BORDERER
    24 days ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Hi Rowen,
    simplest way with the videos is to copy the YouTube web links into your post.
    Like I did with the three vids of my Sea Scout trials.
    Then we can view them simply by clicking on the links. Or copying them into our browser.
    Your results with the 2S and 3S are similar to my experience with the smaller Sea Scout πŸ‘
    Cheers, Doug 😎
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S. BRAVE BORDERER
    23 days ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks Doug,
    I tried that, but the later address superseded the and obliterated the earlier.
    Anyway,our experiences seem very similar. Have decided to "standardize" on the 3S. The performance is clearly superior.
    Will get a longer video on a much larger lake shortly and will post.
    Rowen
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S. BRAVE BORDERER
    23 days ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Hmm! Don't understand what you mean there with 'later address' πŸ€”
    So let's try my Sea Scout links and see what happens.
    (I had taken the precaution of saving the links into a text file πŸ˜‰)
    So here's what I saved last year.

    "Sea Scout trials, Ostpark Munich, 28th May 2018.

    Pt1:
    https://youtu.be/b0BWJ3duzDw
    First run with a 3S LiPo
    Pt2:
    https://youtu.be/oMUlSOaAREM
    'The competition'!

    Pt3:
    https://youtu.be/zPgYicA0yGw
    'Final run', the Bier was getting warm."

    I find that URL links work best on this site when they stand alone on a separate line, no other characters in the same line.

    Cheers, Doug 😎
    PS: Seems to work OK 😊
    https://youtu.be/b0BWJ3duzDw
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    https://youtu.be/zPgYicA0yGw
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S. BRAVE BORDERER
    23 days ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    Checked out your You Tube vids Rowen, and she's looking nice on the water. I think she is riding more steadily and scale like on the 2s than the 3s. On the 3s flat out she's lifting too much in the stern and digging the bow in on the turn and leaning out plus getting a bit of torque roll (mind you you can always reduce throttle and get a better run time). Will be nice to see vid on a bigger pond. Now that's finished, what's next on the board ?
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S. BRAVE BORDERER
    23 days ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Doug,
    Later meant the second or third address which obliterated the preceding one. Anyway,
    will try your suggestion next time I post several videos.
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S. BRAVE BORDERER
    23 days ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Would agree to an extent.
    The 3S though allows the motor speed to be reduced so the plane can be controlled. Either way after all the challenges she produced last year am happy with the outcome.
    My next project is a model of one of the R.A.F. SEAL class, a LRRC which was the last launch used before the R.A.F. Marine branch was closed.
    Just completed the hull sailing trials so will shelve project until next winter. Will eventually write a blog on it.
    Really like your Fairmile and am very tempted to build one of those further down the line.
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    πŸ“ H.M.S BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    After the trials, tribulations, experiments and frustration, can finally announce this model is sailing well. It has excellent performance and looks, both on and off the water. A build really for the more experienced modeller though. If the performance envelope is to be explored it should be done on a suitably large area of water with few other vessels around.
    However, enjoyed building a model of an unusual class of vessels. It expanded my knowledge and skills, then kept me occupied throughout a Canadian winter!
    Have also been lucky to have received considerable useful advice from other modellers, which was much appreciated.
    Building from scratch off a proprietary glass fibre hull gives a robust model with plenty of opportunity for individual input. Intend to use this approach again.
    Whilst am rather blinkered about building scale models to scale; considerable frustration, time and money could have been saved by using a single or even a twin screw layout, rather than the triple. Performance might also have been further improved and weight saved. Several of the U Tube videos of the similar Perkasa models show how well these layouts work.
    There are several photos attached;
    1) Stationary.
    2) Max. speed using the centre screw brushed motor and then the outer brushless screws on the 2S battery
    3) Max. speed using the centre screw brushed motor and then the outer brushless screws on the 3S battery.
    Because the pond is small, was unable to capture the marked differences in performance between the 2 and 3 S batteries. It will plane easily on either, just rather more frenetically on the 3!. Suspect this was because of the difficulty in coordinating acceleration, photographer and deceleration. Will endeavour to get pictures and a video that make this more obvious and post when available.

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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    BRAVO ZULU, well done that man πŸ‘
    "Suspect this was because of the difficulty in coordinating acceleration, photographer and deceleration."
    Practise makes perfect Rowen, esp. for the camera 'person'!

    An altogether very nice job Sir πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘
    Looking forward to the video very much.
    Cheers, Doug 😎
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by Martin555 ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Very nice, well done.
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    πŸ’¬ Re: H.M.S BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    Looking fantastic Rowen, looks like she's all sorted. Can't wait for the video. Nice job. John b
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    πŸ“ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Getting ready for the maiden voyage after the extensive winter upgrade and stumbled across an article on programming Hobbyking ESCs.
    Have always been concerned about the β€œstuttering” of the brushless motors. This is more correctly identified as β€œcogging”, often caused by incorrect motor timing. Changed the timing to β€œAutomatic” from the incorrect previous setting, which was for inrunner motors not outrunners. Now much smoother acceleration from neutral to full speed.
    On the water, first, the brushed motor centre screw concept works well. It allows controllable maneuvering and powers the model nicely in a displacement mode. No planning, but with a reasonable bow wave. The model weight is a little high, as she rides towards the top of the boot topping.
    Tried the brushless outer screws and realized my efforts to β€œdetune” the motors were overdone. The model performance was adequate, but still had difficulty in getting both motors to run consistently and smoothly. Think the water drag was slowing the motors more that expected as they had worked satisfactory on the bench.
    Adjusted the ESC output back to 100% - much better. After 45 minutes of running the battery alarm came on, curtailing trials. She planes very much as the real vessel did, lifting the forefoot clearly out of the water. Had a spare battery, but 3S not 2. Was apprehensive about the increased power this would bring, but as the model was operating satisfactorily decided to try it.
    Better still! Motors now work consistently smoothly and in concert throughout the throttle range.
    The top speed exceeds any picture I have seen of the Brave class though. Can readily get a third of the hull out of the water.
    Will conduct more trails, but need a larger pond to give time to experiment with the various control settings. Hope to post a concluding blog with pictures shortly.

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    πŸ’¬ Re: HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Pics pics pics !! Even better a vid of the trials please Rowen.
    Your results with the 2S vs 3S mirror mine with my Sea Scout trials last year.
    2S was adequate to sedate. 3S turned her into a sport fishing boat πŸ˜€
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BWJ3duzDw&feature=youtu.be
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPgYicA0yGw
    I didn't argue πŸ˜‰
    You can always limit the throttle at the TX again, or restrain your thumb!!🀣
    Cheers, Doug 😎
    PS After my vid this popped up on You Tube . Spruce Goose lives! Magnificent.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgJkfPWyH_E
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0BWJ3duzDw&feature=youtu.be
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPgYicA0yGw
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgJkfPWyH_E
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    πŸ’¬ Re: HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    Bit of torque roll there Doug, skipper might need moving to the starboard seat. Skipper hasn't been on the Schnapps by any chance? -re failure to give way (starboard rule) and collision with tubby yellow boat. A smaller prop might lessen the roll, plus trim tab, and as you mentioned, spray rails. Sounded like the tunefull scream of a 28mm out-runner? I had one in my 36"Maiami with a 25mm 3 blade which did a similar speed to your Scout (with no torque roll) but I temporarily put it back to brushed as I couldn't stand the noise. Also it was useless for on board videos for obvious reasons. Smaller props plus high rev capability give much nicer slow speed control, John B

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    πŸ“ Brave Borderer
    3 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    During our protracted wait for Spring, have had chance to reflect on the earlier tribulations with the brushless motor installation. My enthusiasm was sparked by an article on getting the best from your Tx in a magazine and the advantages of using the Elevon or V Tail facilities if available.
    My Flysky Rx/Tx has this facility, so after some experiments, set the boat up to use the Elevon function. This puts both motor ESCs on the same control lever, so advancing the control accelerates both screws equally and moving to either side accelerates, or slows the appropriate motor. Think this will reduce the coordination previously required to sail in a straight line.
    Fresh from that success decided to experiment further. The Tx allows reducing Servo throw, so tried that too so could reduce the max. ESC output, it also seems to work.
    One problem with the original layout was that if the forward speed was reduced quickly it was very easy to move the lever through the neutral point, overshooting into reverse. This immediately reversed that motor causing erratic operation. The Tx also has a β€œDual Rate” facility to adjust the lever response from linear to various alternate rates. This allows the neutral point zone to be increased, so the tendency to overshoot into reverse is reduced. Bench tests of these adjustments suggest the model will be easier to operate. Hope they will make controlling the models performance better in our closest pool, which is quite small.
    A further precaution to prevent inadvertent operation of the brushless motors when using the centre, brushed one, was to add two small relays; one into each of the white ESC signal wires. This allows a another channel on the Tx to be used to select, or deselect the brushless motors.
    Anticipate that by turning this channel and thus the brushless ESCs off, manoeuvring can be accomplished without the operation being overwhelmed by a brushed motor inadvertently being operated.
    My patience for Spring is getting thinner!

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    πŸ’¬ Brave Borderer
    3 months ago by canabus ( Midshipman)
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    Hi
    Would you please post how you set it up please.

    I have both the Flysky and Turnigy units(same thing only a name change) and would like to add this into a plan build.

    Canabus

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    πŸ’¬ Brave Borderer
    3 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Canobus,
    Have not done a circuit diagram yet, but can explain the Tx settings. if that will suffice can write something up shortly. The instructions are fairly sketchy.

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    πŸ’¬ Brave Borderer
    3 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Canabus,
    Hope this helps,
    Rowen

    Using the FS-I6X instruction Manual, dated 8/10/2018.
    This Tx allows infinite experimenting with the various control functions and ultimately reverting to factory settings if dissatisfied with results.
    After several attempts at setting the ELEVON function (V-TAIL could be similar, but the Tx channels would be different), decided this works best for me. it puts both brushless ESCs on the RH control lever. Moving it up operates both screws in the forward direction and down into reverse. Going from side to side speeds up or slows down the motors, so the boat goes in the direction the lever dictates. This was accomplished by:
    1) Page 14/57 Establish the Tx Stick mode, mine was # 2.
    2) Considering ELEVON, need to determine which layout allows the Aileron and Elevator controls to be operated by same lever.
    3) Use Elevator for throttle (fwd & astern) and Aileron to β€œturn”. The Aileron will accelerate the motor on the outside of a turn.
    4) Plug Port & Starboard motor ESCs into channels 1 & 2 respectively.
    5) Refer to Para 5.10 and set Elevon mode on Tx.
    6) Use channel 4 (LH lever side to side) for rudder and Channel 3 (LH lever up / down) for any other function needing proportional control. I am using it for the centre brushed motor.
    This means that my control levers, which had previously had throttle on the LH lever and rudder on the right are now totally changed.
    There is also an article in the March edition of Model Boats that explains the concept.

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    πŸ“ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Winter seems to encourage modeling, have spent many hours in hibernation working on the deck and superstructure details.
    A supplier offers a full set of Perkasa fittings, most of which would work on the Brave B. At one point considered buying a set. They are made in both resin and cast metal. Eventually parsimony prevailed, so only purchased a small number of hatch covers and other intricate shapes that would be difficult to make well. The items duly arrived and the quality is good. Was surprised by the weight though, so am pleased had embarked on making the other items from the usual materials. There should be an overall weight saving, along with a reduction in my surplus styrene and wood stock.
    One of the design tenants of the Brave class was flexibility. The vessel could operate as a MTB, MGB or Raider, or with a mixture of these capabilities. The weapon mountings were designed to allow armaments to be installed and moved around to suite the requirements of the role.
    Have reviewed many Brave class photographs trying to establish a β€œstandard” armament configuration, to reproduce. Not only does the configuration define the weapons installed, it also establishes the ammunition and flare storage cabinet arrangements. Eventually decided upon the 2 x 40mm Bofors gun arrangement with 2 x 21” torpedoes and 4 x extended range fuel tanks.
    The model is now essentially complete. No doubt as I keep examining it will add further small details and refinements.
    Only disappointment so far is that it does not achieve the original weight target of 6 lbs, it is 9.5 lbs. The 6 lbs may possibly have achievable using one screw and motor etc., but once three are installed, not likely.
    The real test is when finally back on the water. Will close this blog then with a concluding report.

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    πŸ’¬ Re: HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    She's looking very smart now Rowen, waiting for the video when you finish. I wouldn't worry too much about the weight as you have the width in the hull. My 36" ASR weighs around 6.5lbs all up but has a very narrow hull (tapers to only 5 1/8" on the waterline at the transom) and it planes just like the real thing, with the 2 28-45 2000kv in-runners, and 1x 2s 2200mah lipo per motor which gives me about an hour plus 'play time'.
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    πŸ’¬ Re: HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by Martin555 ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Hi,
    A very neat and tidy boat.

    I made one of these many years ago but nowhere near to the standard off yours.
    Excellent work well done.
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    πŸ’¬ Re: HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    2 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks all for the comments.
    The weight is rather more than expected, but attribute it mainly to the centre brushed motor/shaft/screw arrangement.
    Hoping to get some pictures later this week and will post them.
    The extra weight does not seem to impede performance, so not that concerned.
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    πŸ“ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    6 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    After completing the cowl, turned to the rear structure covering the gas turbine and other engine spaces. This can readily be made from styrene sheet. The sides and top were cut out, reinforced with β€œL” shaped angle and fitted together with CA glue. No particular challenges, other than determining where the various section transitions occur. Luckily had two different sets of plans to compare, so the nuances could be established.
    It was not until the rear structure was fitted into the cowl, the assembly fitted to the removable deck and placed on the hull, realized just how important this milestone was. Once everything is firmly located the accuracy of build becomes readily apparent. Any inaccuracies show up as an obvious misalignment.
    Was able to check the alignments and squareness using eye, rules, squares and a spirit level and was pleased with the outcome. A subtle sanding of about .020” off the base of one side of the superstructure and everything became square, parallel and correctly aligned. Quite a relief!
    Have always stressed the importance of accuracy throughout a build. This supported that recommendation.
    Once the superstructure was completed realized my plan to lift the deck off to gain access to the electrical control switches was impractical. Have thus cut a small access hole in the rear deck to facilitate access. Still undecided how to best disguise the hole, but at least access is now relatively easy.
    From now on, until the test program can be continued on the water, will add detail to the model. Doubt there will be much to describe is that of interest, or that has not been covered by others.
    Will continue this blog once there is anything significant to report.
    In the meantime, best wishes for Christmas and 2019,

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    6 months ago by canabus ( Midshipman)
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    Hi
    I am working on a Precedent Perkasa 37" and I added two sets of double 10mm magnets to the front of the wheelhouse and one set at the stern.
    I can lift the whole boat with battery by the wheelhouse.
    I do not think it's going to come off !!!
    Canabus

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by canabus ( Midshipman)
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    Hi All
    I have finally fix the boats turning problems by racking the rudder forward 8 degrees and making a new rudder blade with the leading edge straight.
    The bow only dips slightly on the turns.
    Canabus

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Hi Canabus, Do you have before and after photos as this sounds intriguing? A video would also be helpful if you have one.
    Thanks
    Rowen

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by BOATSHED ( Warrant Officer)
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    Yes also, I would love to see pictures. Very interested . I even went as far as fitting small wooden wedges on the rear of the under side corners of the hull. that was all trial and error from other modelers suggestions on the pond side. Prop swaps and all sorts.

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by canabus ( Midshipman)
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    Hi
    A few pics of my modify setup, no pics before hand.
    Moving weight fore or adding ballast works better than wedges.
    Only tested the boat by myself and I gave it a real workout.
    Motor 3639-1100kv, 60A ESC, 5800mah Lipo and 37mm 3blade prop.
    A 40mm 2blade works better and uses a bit less power.
    Rudder blade size 30mm across the top, 22mm across the bottom, 45 deep and the shaft 10mm from the leading edge.
    Sharpen the leading edge and the trialing edge flat.
    This catches are air in the water and send it to the surface.
    Canabus

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by kevinsharpe ( Leading Seaman)
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    Hi. Been watching this build progress and the discussion. Having seen the recently posted pictures of the rudder installation it appears that your problem is probably caused by the rudder aspect. From the photos it appears that the rudder post is not mounted completely vertical. Thus when the blade is turned by the servo this will create an aileron or elevator effect on the water flow. Things behave very. Much the same in water as they do in the sir.

    Regards
    Kevin

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by canabus ( Midshipman)
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    Hi All
    The boat had the rudder completely vertical to start with and that is the problem.
    With the rudder vertical the boat pulls the bow down in the turns which makes it sit up on the chine.
    A planning hull attack angle is about four degrees to the water, but these boats like an angle of about six degrees.
    The leading edge of the rudder and the angle of it governs bow lift or dip in the turns.
    Also the balance point of the boat is as important as the rudder setup.
    Canabus

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    πŸ’¬ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    5 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks Canabus,
    Guess will not know if I need to do something like that until we are back on the water in Spring, but food for thought.
    Rowen
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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Back to the build. Next milestone, to complete the superstructure and engine covers. The superstructure is essentially a cowl that supports the open bridge and serves as the air intake for the gas turbines. The engine covers fit into the rear of it.
    The superstructure is full of curves and will be interesting to make. Still trying to save weight, decided to make it out of glassfibre. Rather than first make a plug then a female mould and finally the cowl, wanted to try the technique of making a plug out of styrene foam sheet, then covering it in a glass fibre matt. Once the glass fibre is set, the foam is dissolved out using a solvent and the cowl remains – inshallah!
    To ensure the foam did not react to the glass fibre resin, painted the finished cowl with enamel paint before sticking the matt down. See pictures.
    What a mess! The resin had crept under the paint and into the foam dissolving it. When the
    resin dried the plug had shrunk slightly and had the surface finish of a quarry. First thought was to hurl it and start again, this time in wood.
    On second thoughts, wondered if the plug could still be used. Decided to build it up with wood filler and from it make a female mould, as originally intended. The cowl would then be made from the mould. Built the damaged plug up and sanded it smooth. As the plug would be covered in fibreglass, the surface finish was not critical. Brushed a coat of fibreglass on the plug and, after drying filled any defects with glaze putty and sanded smooth.
    Once the finish and dimensions were satisfactory, applied a thicker coat of glass fibre to the plug. This was again smoothed down, waxed with carnauba polish and then covered in mould release. From it the cowl was made.
    Picture shows plug, mould and cowl placed side by each. The cowl requires reinforcement; the fittings and various mountings then adding before installing. A trial installation showed that it fitted properly the deck and was accurate.
    A lesson for the next time is to make the plug and mould much deeper than the finished item. That will allow any rough edges, on either the mould or the component, to be trimmed off leaving a smooth fibreglass edge.

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    7 months ago by kevinsharpe ( Leading Seaman)
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    Hi
    Did you consider building the superstructure using plastic sheet as plastic would bend around the curves.

    Regards
    Kevin

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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Hi Kevin,
    Yes I did, because of the complexity of the shape that was another technique that could have been used. I decided to use glass fibre as the cowl is around 7" wide and 3 1/2" deep. Considered a draw of that depth was beyond my skill and facilities with plastic sheet. if they are available it would have been a good approach.
    The more I work with glass fibre the more forgiving it seems to be. Not many mistakes that cannot be disguised or corrected!
    Rowen

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    How true, how true RowenπŸ‘πŸ˜
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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Finally the new brass propellers arrived, delayed about a month in one of Canada's regular postal disruptions. After minor modifications to the boss profile (the brass are more streamlined and thus longer than nylon) to give clearance with the rudder leading edges, they were easily installed.
    Could now refit the electrical equipment previously removed to get access to the shaft couplings.
    Inevitably took the opportunity to make β€œimprovements”, so then could not get anything to work! After much frustration determined the problem was not from my improvements, but from the cheap and nasty slide switches provided with ESCs. These must have got damp during the test runs and corroded internally. Suggest when using these switches they be consigned to the garbage and replaced with proper toggle ones.
    Had decided to use the centre brushed motor/propeller for manoeuvring and low speed operation and then the outer brushless for high speed. Brushless ESCs do not modulate smoothly and motor operation is erratic. This was particularly evident when going from forward to reverse and vice versa. Using a lever control Tx, it was also easy to inadvertently operate the brushless control along with the brushed making the model response unpredictable.
    After some thinking, decided to insert a small relay into each of the white signal wires for the brushless motor ESCs. These relays would be controlled by a RC switch operated by another channel on the Rx. Hoping this way the brushless motors could be switched on and off whenever desired. The two relays would retain the ESCs as separate circuits and avoid any interference between them.
    The idea worked, can now operate the brushed motor confidently knowing the brushless will not be inadvertently triggered. This means low speed manoeuvers can be gently undertaken using the modulation and control ability of the brushless motors and, by selecting the auxiliary control, can add the high speed capability of the brushless.
    Am also hoping that when the Li-Pos trigger the low voltage cut-outs in the ESCs, this will retain a β€œget-home” facility on the brushed motor as that ESC operates independently.
    Much to look forward to when next on the water.

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Good thinking BatmanπŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘
    I hate those slide switches as well. They're always the first thing to fail on my garden solar lights.
    Nice trick with the relays, could also perhaps have used one double pole relay to replace the ESC switches? Otherwise they are energised but in an 'undefined' state 😲
    Strange, I don't have your 'modulation' problems with the brushless (1000kV) in my Sea Scout!?
    'Get-home'; agreed πŸ‘, that's why I'm pondering squishing a centre motor into my PT Boat. it's all stripped out and in the 'C Check' dock πŸ€” so now is the time!
    All the best Rowen, cheers, Doug 😎

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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks Doug, always appreciate your thoughts.
    The relays are in a NO mode, so only operate when selected. On the bench works fine.
    Perhaps you do not have the same modulation issue as you are using 1000Kv and I am 2200. My motors respond rapidly, particularly around the fwd/rev position, so am always trying to accurately centre the lever.
    The motors I choose have integral cooling jackets and are nicely made. if they had been available in a lower rating would have probably used that.
    Good luck with the PT boat, looking forward to hearing what you decide with the powertrain.
    Good luck with the "C" check oug. Best wishes R

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Good point with the kV rating Rowen πŸ‘
    I could try an experiment!
    Don't know quite why (JFF I suppose😁) I also have a 3500kV motor to play with, WELL it was there and not expensive, WHAT could I do?
    Guilty as charged yer honorπŸ€”.
    I could stick that in and see what happens. Maybe I'll have to fit stub wings and floats and turn it into a flying boat😁
    Had figured the relays where NO. Hope you remembered the back emf diodes, s'pect you didπŸ˜‰ Guess they are triggered by servo and micro switch, or did you get fancy with transistor drivers?
    Whatever, great ideaπŸ‘
    All the best, Doug 😎
    PS Just a thought! if it's 'kV' problem you could try screwing your drive battery down a cell perhaps? Then maybe it wouldn't be so hyperactive.
    Another thought (must be the tablets!) many ESCs and TXs let you programme the width / sensitivity of the neutral point. Check your manuals, worth a try.

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Ref the PTB Rowen,
    I 'inherited' it for a reasonable sum and it came with two what I believe to be 2200s! Can't tell for sure as the labels are worn blank. Previous owner said it was 'too much a handful for him'. We'll see - sometime next spring πŸ˜‰
    If I fit a third motor I was thinking of a brushed 385. What did you fit?
    Cheers, Doug

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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Bet the PO had my problem!
    I used a 550 as had a spare, the 385 should be OK
    Will respond to your earlier post tomorrow. Must close for night now
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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    G'night πŸ˜‰
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    7 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    Rowen, here are a couple of things that may be of use to you (and others). The battery alarm will save you worrying about running out of steam as they can be set to beep at varying voltages to warn you of low battery, just put one on each batt balance lead and when one goes off (when an individual cell drops below the set voltage) it means start heading back. These can be picked up on Ebay for a few dollars. I use them on my planes as well and are audable from around 100m (these twin horns are the best) Secondly, re your ESC switches, these electronic switches (AliExpress) are great for this sort of thing (as long as you have enough aux switches on TX ) You can link them with a Y cable to work together or use them independantly for anything, (lights, pumps etc, - they can be operated by TX rotary switches as well) The ESC and 2000kv motor (HK) are the ones I am using in my ASR model and will work smoothly down to a crawl, the purple 1980 kv seems to have superseded these but I think they will be as good. The props are from Ali Express and are resin and available in L and R hand, are only a few bucks and perform perfectly while looking quite scale(ish). I painted them with an acrylic bronze which seems to have stayed on pretty well. Model weighs 2.8kg and will run at more than 10mph flat out with this set-up (using the 26mm L+R) props) which is silly speed and that's with 2x 2s 2200mah lipos (which will last till you get sick of it and still have 60% left)
    I was just looking at your Daman set-up and noticed the wiring method from the batts to the ESCs. You might want to make your batt to ESC connections direct to your ESCs (as per original ESC lead length)as your capacitors may get a thrashing (spikes) due to the extra length/ resistance you have there. There is a general rule that you don't lengthen the batt to ESC wiring without adding a 220mf capacitor of same voltage as the ESC for every 4"of extra wire length (ESC to motor - not so much). Might want to check this out in case you fry your ESCs You probably have thought of this but thought I'd mention it, 'just in case' Might help with your modulation as well.
    Have chucked in a vid of the HSL manouvering (first trials so wasn't perfect) and also the MTB (brushed) which I have just converted to a twin system (was twin but single Electronize unit) plus a sound unit. You may know that you can use as many RECs (bound to the same TX) for various purposes on the same boat (have run 2 boats together from the same TX) Might get you round the mixed brushless/ brushed problem with a bit of thought. Have you thought of changing your old HK silver 6DF TX to twin throttles, it's a piece of cake(as is the TGY 6x), just remove the aileron/rudder centering spring and make a friction plate as per throttle stick, and use the elevator channel as your other throttle. Set your ESCs and you can then use a twin system giving you perfect control. Saves a lot of hassle.

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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks jbkiwi and RN in Munich for your suggestions:
    Have never used Ali Express, those components look interesting. Will follow up. I have used a battery alarm of the type suggested and it does work well. Have a couple for use once back on water.
    The rule about adding a capacitor into the ESC circuit is new to me. Have ferrite rings fitted so will now explore adding capacitors too. Are these is series or parallel with the wiring?
    The relays are not used with diodes or any electronic gubbins. Wanted to make the circuit as simple as possible for a Mechanical Engineer, so used one separate relay per ESC. The relay operation is controlled by a RC switch off another Rx channel. it seems to work. Am aware of the back feed possibilities and hope to have avoided them with the separate circuits. Appreciate any thoughts though, can add diodes if necessary.
    Am using a new FLYSKY 10 Ch. Tx/Rx on this model which opens up a host of programming opportunities. Am experimenting with various features such an the interval between Fwd/Rv also limiting ESC response. As am now using the brushless motors essentially in unison, also toying with controlling the 2 x ESCs on a β€œY” lead on a single control.
    Much to think about, pity our winter has arrived early and the pond has been converted to a skating rink.

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Hi Rowen,
    Re Relays. The so called 'back emf' (reverse voltage) is caused when you switch off the relay. The magnetic field collapses and the energy is releases as a voltage spike with opposite polarity to the 'pull in' voltage.
    Since you are using an electronic switch this spike could damage the output transistor of the switch.😑
    The diode is connected across the relay coil as a blocking diode, i.e. back to front wrt the operating voltage, and absorbs the spike. Each and any relay coil needs one! This is a manifestation of the induction effect which makes E-motors and generators work πŸ˜‰

    Capacitors: Parallel!!

    An idea with the Y leadπŸ‘ You'll lose the 'tank' steering assistance function though.😲 Happy experimenting, cheers, Doug 😎
    PS I use the same alarms, also good for testing batteries on the bench, and ESCs from the same Quicrun range (in my Sea Scout for example), reliable and simple to set up.
    Even simpler if you buy the little programming card for them. Only a few bucks and well worth it. I've been wondering if it's the response of your ESCs which causes your 'modulation' problem! Remind me; which ESCs are you using?
    PPS have a look here for an explanation of the suppression (flyback) diode and how to connect it 😊
    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Flyback_diode
    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Flyback_diode
    πŸ”—

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    7 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    Don't know what happened to my last post but I'll try again. This link, https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1148637-wire-... href='https://model-boats.com/search?q=tag:battery' onclick="loadpage('search?q=tag:battery'); return false;" class="taghighlight">battery may be a useful read and explain what I am on about (rough idea in pic). I don't think too many people are aware of some of the problems which can be caused by altering Batt to ESC wiring. I don't think its too much of a problem at lower voltages but see what you think.
    Not sure if you have a throttle curve facility on your new TX but if it has, using that you can create a gentle start, ramping up steadily, no matter how fast you push the stick up. You can ram the stick up but it will only follow the curve you set. eg pic showing random curve (you can make this any shape you want to control any function) there are usually a number of curves you can set and save for throttle, rudder - anything you want to control automatically. Not sure about your TX but my 9xr even has a feature whereby you can slow the servo action down (I use that on my Piper Super Cub flaps which come down slowly in 2 stages (2 pos switch) and go up faster. Your new TX probably has a lot of these features and once you find how to use them it will open up a whole new world of fun. Another example of what you can do with these computer radios is, on one of my models I am using 'flapperons' to slow it for landing and as the ailerons come down the elevator is mixed to move up to compensate to stop the plane nosing down. it's pretty much endless what you can do. I'm still exploring after 8 yrs of computer radio use. I remember a guy somewhere talking about the flashing lights on his plane and saying it wasn't the lights on a flasher unit it was the TX telling them to flash.
    https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1148637-wire-lengths-between-ESC-motor-ESC-battery
    πŸ”—

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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Doug,
    Am using the HobbyKing 50A Boat ESC 4A UBEC along with their programming card. The diode explanation makes sense so will fit one.
    jbkiwi
    My battery -ESC and ESC -motor wires are short, probably around 4" each. The addition of capacitors as suggested is intriguing as have never heard of it before. Think it is easier to keep things together in a boat, whereas with an aircraft pitch trim becomes a factor. Am using 2S batteries with a 50A ESC, with the motor max current of 30 A. Have you any idea what size of capacitor I should use?
    The Tx/Rx combinations are almost infinite as the ESCs are programmable too. Just wish the ice would go so can experiment!
    Thanks both for your help, with this hobby you never stop learning.

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Hi Rowen,
    You don't need capacitors at all, and certainly not in series with the wiring.
    Whereas I can heartily endorse all that jbkiwi says about the possibilities of modern TXs, I've only scratched the surface of what my Spectrum and Turnigy sets can do, I can see no justification for the extra capacitors on ESC leads.
    The length of the wires inside a typical model can not have a significant effect on the total resistance.
    Given a typical resistance of 1m of copper wire with ca 1mmΒ² cross sectional area of 0.02Ω (less for larger gauges) it ain't gonna make a happorth of difference whether you have 4" (10cm) or 40". Maybe a little more warmth but the capacitor can't change that.
    I also can't see where the spikes he mentions should come from.
    Also bear in mind that the ESC does not apply pure DC to the motor but a pulse train with a pulse repetition rate of around 8 to 10kHz. That's why the motors whistle and scream.
    Adding capacitors to this could distort the pulses or reduce their peak value.

    If the ESC is so bad that it produces big spikes when the pulses are switched on or off (which I doubt theses days) then junk it and buy a decent one.
    On no account fit a capacitor in series with the wiring, unless it is a special Coaxial Capacitor, which are very big and relatively expensive. See pic.
    I've only seen them on large electric motors on board ships where the much higher currents and longer cable runs involved than in models may play a role.
    A very small value capacitor, in the picofarad range might help to short out any potential high frequency RF interference but I've never experienced the need to fit them. in this respect it could be more important that the length of the cable is not close to the wavelengths typically used by RC sets (12.5cm at 2.4GHz) so that it does not act like an antenna.
    Cheers, Doug 😎
    jbkiwi have looked at the link you posted but I'm not convinced considering the small lengths we use in our boats. Yes there will be some overshoot spikes in the pulse train but so severe as to damage anything is in my opinion highly unlikely, given a decent quality ESC in the first place.
    Something else on that link just occurred to me. There is a pic of what looks like electrolytic (polarised) capacitors between the wires. This is fine for aircraft ESCs which only run forwards, and thus produce positive going pulses. in our boats with reverse the pulse will switch over to negative going. Which after a while could have an explosive effect on the electrolytics. it blows the cans off and produces an interesting snowstorm effect. Good party trick😁 but maybe not so super inside a model boat😑
    IF you do fit them to a reversible ESC be sure to use tantalum capacitors which aren't so fussy.

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    7 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    Doug, you are probably correct and good thought regarding the polarised caps , but I was just thinking that if the battery input was going through a fuse system as it appears in Rowens photos (difficult to see) it may have caused a slight problem. I have seen mentions of up to 12" between batt and ESC being no problem at lower Amps. You might notice that one of the inputs was from a guy from Castle Creations (USA) which I thought would give a bit of weight to the information. I have always gone with the ESC manufacturers suggestions regarding wire length and have never had a problem in boats or planes (mainly in planes,-18 most 'converted' to electric from IC -3 capable of pulling 1200W) it's great to be able to chuck ideas and info around, as we can all pick something out of it all which will solve a problem, or perhaps stop us from toasting an electronic component or whatever. BTW, I saw somewhere that extending the wires could cause stuttering and that was one other reason for mentioning the info, as I know Rowen's had a problem with that. I'm sure it will be ok as is,- if its working fine, and it's not going to be run flat out every day it will probably last for years. Probably me thinking on the cautious side as my personal approach to building is to use the K.I.S.S method (may not be the flashest but usually keeps me out of trouble) Regarding the quality of ESCs, you will find that many have the same internal bits just with different cases and colours, (same with chargers) HK is bad for this. Many I have seen use an Atmega chip and you can tell differences by the programming method (some you have to do 1 step and disconnect power before the next step, others just with stick forward center back center etc. Most boards are made in China (Castle Creations and a few others being exceptions) and what you get depends on the quality of assembly/soldering etc in the plant they are made in (if you want to see how many of these items are made in China check out Made in China.com and search ESCs for example. I have cheap ESCs I've used in my planes for years with no probs which look like the HK Red Brick ESCs (except blue) and they are better than the TGY branded ones at 3x the price, and really let the power through !. Even CC have apparently made boards for HK with different cases as have Hobbywing. it's really a case of "you pays ya money and ya takes ya chances". in saying that you are pretty safe with Hobbywing, Tamya, SkyRc, or Castle Creations (USA) but there are other better non China ones around but a a much bigger price. Hope we aren't overloading you Rowen, you might have to get into the 'anti-freeze' to soothe the brain in that cold weather. Another site for you to check out which I have found to be very good, with prices to match HK is RCEcho.com (Hong Kong) Have bought most of my aircraft ESCs from them (around 28 from 30A-120A with no probs)

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Mornin' JB,
    Guess I'll have to remain 'agnostic' on this issue for now - I'm still to be convinced. This might explain a phenomenon I've noticed during testing of the Taycol Supermarine I've just renovated for Colin. More on that later in the 'Supermarine resurrection' blog.
    I'll do some experiments using my digital scope and see if I can trap and measure these elusive spikes for various wire lengthsπŸ˜‰
    Can't comment on the guy from Castle, don't know them, except to say that I found his comments a bit vague and without explanation.
    There are also contradictory posts on that link; some say before the ESC some after. Can't really see the point of putting the caps in front of the ESC, switching spikes SHOULD only appear on the output side I'll look at that on the scope, and after all a fuse to protect against fouled prop and jammed motor is standard fit between battery and ESC, or should be! So some wiring extension for that is essential. Also I would expect the battery to flatten any spikes that do appear at the ESC supply side.

    As you say the internals of several 'manufacturers' ESCs are often the same. Nothing new, branding and badge engineering has been going on for decades for all sorts of things and no RC kit manufacturer / distributor produces his own components. Important factors are; quality of his own assembly and where does he buy his components - originals or cheap copies?

    28 ESCs! Wow 😲 and I thought I had a lot!
    As reported I have so far had good results with the Quicrun series, both brushed and brushless. Next one to test is their Dual Brushed version.
    Prior to going brushless I used a lot of Graupner ESCs - made in Korea., never managed to blow one of them either, not even the little micro and pico jobs.

    Thanks for raising this issue - I like a good debate and we can all learn something from it I hopeπŸ‘ Plus; piquing my curiosity is always dangerous 😁
    Greetings to Down Under from 'Up Over', cheers, 😎Doug
    PS Further thought just struck me (Ouch😑); if this is really a dramatic problem why have I never seen any warnings about it in any ESC instructions? Yes, I'm THAT guy who actually reads the instructions!!

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    7 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks all for your help and suggestions. Plenty to noodle over during our cold winter nights.
    Rowen

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    7 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Spaghetti or Farfalle? 😁😁 bon appΓ©tit πŸ‘
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    πŸ“ HMS BRAVE BORDERER
    8 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    The weather has quickly turned colder, giving an excuse to get back to this model.
    Stripped out much of the interior and the prop. shafts to replace the nylon propellers with brass. These items all needed removing for painting, so decided to paint the hull before reassembly and then moving onto the superstructure.
    Fortunately, examining similar naval vessels and several U Tube videos, confirmed the hull as light grey, the deck a darker one of the 50 shades of grey and the lower hull below the waterline black. Used thin Tamiya masking tape to define clean colour separations, followed by regular tape, masked the hull into colour sections and sprayed using β€œrattle” cans. After the colours applied a light overall Matt coat to subdue any shine. The results are satisfactory. Will now reassemble and move onto building the superstructure and the other fittings.

    Prior to the season closing decided to experiment with my new Flysky Tx/Rx package, shortly to be fitted to this model. This Tx has a servo limiting function, which was hoping could also be used to restrict ESC output. Would like to make the full speed motor response correspond to full Tx control position. Currently can over power the model; which lifts the stern, causing it to come off the plane and then dig the bow in.
    Was thinking that if full throttle could be set at around 90% forward control movement and 40% sternwards the model would retain adequate performance, but without being overpowered or very sensitive to control lever movement.
    As the Brave was not available, tried the idea on my Daman Stan 4207 model. This is brushed motor powered and a good performer. Obviously the settings for the Brave will be different, but at least could try to see if the idea would work – it did!
    This Tx function is easy to use and adjustments can be made whilst the model is on the water. Once the ideal settings are achieved they can be programmed and then retained in the Tx. Will try this on the Brave when back on the water next Spring.

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    6 months ago by TOWN3810 ( Leading Seaman)
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    HI a chap in our club sails a Vosper mtb ,quite fast on a single screw , planes easily even on its brushed motor . every time he tries to turn at speed the boat dives bow going under water . we think the rudder , when the boat banks is taking on a horizontal conponent like an aeroplane elevator . we seem to use rudder sizes much larger in comparison to full size boats which wont help Cheers Ian

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    6 months ago by BOATSHED ( Warrant Officer)
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    Lot's of people disagree but I have had this happen and was advised to trim the leading edge off of the rudder as it acts as a brake and will cause the boat to dig in on the turn. I have trimmed mine and always do now when I build a new boat. I have enclosed a picture to give you an idea of how the rudder blade would look when trimmed. Once cut to this shape I then round the corners with a file. You may get answers saying i'm wrong but it has worked for me. Anything is worth a try,

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    6 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks for your suggestions. Once we get back on the water in the Spring will investigate further. My last run in the fall indicated that the performance was now satisfactory and predictable. Cannot wait to try again and confirm.
    This is my first foray into a high speed vessel and it gives plenty of food for thought as even minor adjustments can make a big impact

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    6 months ago by canabus ( Midshipman)
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    Hi
    Can we have a full picture of the rudder please.
    I was going to angle the rudder back to get the bow to stay up in the turns.
    We did this on tunnel hull boats years ago.
    Canabus

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    πŸ“ BRAVE BORDERER - BRUSHLESS SUMMARY
    9 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Although have modeling experience, all my earlier vessels used brushed motors. This was my first brushless. The model is now running well, but thought, for the benefit of others considering this transition to summarize my experiences.
    Must stress the performance of a brushless motor is incredible when compared to a similar sized brushed; for a vessel such as this they are almost obligatory. They are worth the trouble!
    Had been advised that the best powertrain installation for a 37” Brave Borderer is either a single or twin screws, not three. This was good advice! Much heartache could have been avoided with a single screw installation. Unfortunately, that is not the correct layout for a scale builder.
    Tried three major powertrain iterations, with several variations within each group. All motors are 28mm O/D :
    1) The original installation used 3 x 4600kV inrunner motors with 30 A ESCs. Had bought these items used. The motors were too fast and had little torque. The ESCs also did not have adequate capacity. The result was erratic performance, a high fuse failure rate and the eventual failure of an ESC and motor
    Picture #1.
    2) First upgrade was to 2 x 2400kV inrunner motors, using 50A capacity ESCs. The centre shaft was fitted with a brushed motor. This combination did work, although suffered greatly from motor β€œsqueal” and β€œstutter”. Eventually a motor burnt out and failed. Picture #2
    3) Upgrade two: retained the 50 A ESCs, with 2 x 2600 kV outrunner motors, again with the brushed inner shaft motor. Reprogrammed the ESCs to soft start parameters. Much better, performance and reliability can now be considered acceptable. The squeal and stutter are largely corrected it has justified the challenges of getting here. Picture #3
    Have tried both 2 and 3S Li-Po batteries, suggest use the minimum voltage needed to achieve the desired performance. Higher voltages translate into faster response and performance, but with less control modulation. The model can be easily overpowered.
    In summary, from my experience. For a marine application; chose low (under 2000kV) kV rating motors with an outrunner layout wherever possible (produce more torque than inrunners). Use ESCs with a ratings comfortably in excess of the motor ratings, fit fuses to supplement any ESC protections. Ensure the ESCs are programmed to β€œsoft start” characteristics. Also, the obvious check of making sure shaft alignment is correct is even more important with the higher speed capability of brushless motors. in spite of the trails, cost and tribulations of getting here. Have enjoyed the challenge and the end result does justify the means.
    Also, do not finally fit the deck until you are satisfied with the performance. Making the changes described with limited access would have been very difficult and frustrating.

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    8 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Glad it all worked out in the end Rowen πŸ‘
    Cheers, Doug 😎

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    8 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Thanks Doug. Seems to have, been a long and exciting road though!

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    8 months ago by RNinMunich ( Fleet Admiral)
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    That's why we're all here ain't it! πŸ‘πŸ˜‰
    Doug 😎

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    πŸ’¬ BRAVE BORDERER - BRUSHLESS SUMMARY
    8 months ago by Sakibian ( Master Seaman)
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    Wonderful stuffs. What's the pump to flow waters faster?

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    8 months ago by BOATSHED ( Warrant Officer)
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    Is it a car windscreen washer pump ?

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    8 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    The pump was installed to give positive water flow even when stationary. Felt this would ensure cooling under most conditions. The plumbing is quite torturous and suspected there might be a significant head drop in the circuit.
    With the wisdom of hindsight, probably overkill; the water scoop between propellers may prove adequate.

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    8 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Used a small 6 - 12 volt pump bought from E Bay. Have used windscreen washer pumps before, but they are relatively heavy and bulky. This was quite compact and light and were closer to my weight restriction.

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    8 months ago by Sakibian ( Master Seaman)
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    Thank you! Found this pump in Ali express.

    Here's the link if anyone needs: Waterproof Ultra-quiet Water Pump 4.2W 240L/H Micro Brushless DC 12V Water Pump Car Submersible Fountain Aquarium Circulating
    https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cVs7aajO
    https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/cVs7aajO
    πŸ”—

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    8 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    I used this pump from E Bay which pumps well, and with the rubber mounts is quiet. 6-12v (I use a 2 cell LiPo which seems perfect) and am cooling 2 2000kv 28mm in-runners. Have tried a few different pumps and these have been the best so far. You have to be careful that you don't over pressurize your plumbing system, as if the hoses come off while running you can fill your boat up in no time. it's safest to adjust your pump voltage or piping to a 'neutral' pressure rather than risk hosing down your electrics. I used twin pick-ups behind the props and separate feeds, one for the pump and one direct in case the pump stopped or blocked.

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    8 months ago by Donnieboy ( Warrant Officer)
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    Great idea using separate feeds.One less worry.πŸ‘

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    8 months ago by RHBaker ( Sub-Lieutenant)
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    Never thought of using separate feeds, good idea. That pump looks like the one I used too.

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    7 months ago by jbkiwi ( Warrant Officer)
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    The only thing you might have to watch out for is back feed from the pump out the aux tube (when moving) if you don't set up the y joints (must be y not T ) to create a venturi effect from the pump side. Doesn't matter standing still but at speed a T junction might reduce the flow as the flows will be fighting each other slightly. The beauty of the twin system is that if you are running a lot at high speed you could turn the pump off to save power. The best place to position water intakes is I have found is directly behind the prop (I usually just squash the brass tube slightly, fair it, cut it off at 45 deg and set it to just sit in the prop wash). At lower speeds especially, the prop will help to push water into the tubes rather than just relying on speed alone. Never had a problem with pickups interfering with rudder effectiveness as long as you fair the pickups nicely

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