Sailing ship "full rigged ship", "Af Chapman", now "Dunboyne".

Started by AlessandroSPQR
56 replies 121 likes 0 followers Last activity: 9 days ago
#57 10
@AlessandroSPQR
A moving traveller system was my second guess

1) I visualize a side-to-side slit in the deck and all the mechancial parts for the shifting BELOW the deck.
Something like a drum winch connected to each end, that will pull this device from side to side. Think rudder control side to side

2) A regular traveller on deck
A hole at each end of the traveller
A line comes up through the port side hole, attaches to SHEET GUIDE on the traveller. The main sheet runs through the SHEET GUIDE. The only thing new on the deck is the line and the SHEET GUIDE. The SHEET GUIDE can be as simple as a ring, with the traveller running through it

RUDDER
Rudder is definitely an issue. Others here have commented on its small size. the 65cm racing sailboats have a rudder half it's size. Those boats weigh 2 kg.
The BLUENOSE will be 181 cm and 18 kg. A problem in the future
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#56 10
@RossM
Hi Ross.
No, that wasn't the idea—though it is certainly an interesting one.

I was thinking about dynamically shifting the sheet attachment point to the left or right (using a transverse traveler track).
On real boats, the traveler doesn't serve this specific function, but on a scale model, we could create a system like that to force the boom to move left or right while still allowing you to sheet in or ease the sail.
The problem is that the traveler car would be visible on the deck.

Another approach is to use two sheets for the mainsail boom (one windward and one leeward), similar to how a jib is rigged; however, that differs significantly from reality, and I’m not too keen on it.

I’ll try to sketch something out for you as soon as I can to explain it better.
If it’s not clear, the fault is certainly mine, not yours.

P.S. I’m a bit concerned because, looking at your model, I notice that the rudder (which is beautifully made) might run into the issues I had anticipated.
In my case, if there’s no wind or it’s too light, I can engage the propeller during a tack, but you have to rely entirely on the sails.
Still, this is just a hypothesis; the tacking issues might not necessarily occur. In fact, I’m hoping that your model—being much larger and thus closer to full-scale dimensions than mine—might be less prone to these problems.
#54 14
@AlessandroSPQR
On block and tackle:
I have shifted the sheeting to a braided thread 0.34mm. It flows through the block much quicker

I cleaned up the pulleys, they were binding on the sides of the block and too tight on the pin/axle of the block

I have got the counter-weight down to 360 grams from 2000 grams, after the block clean-up.
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#53 15
@AlessandroSPQR
I am not sure I understand your idea for boom-rudder

Are you thinking of a system that moves the boom back and forth, with no help from a rudder and wind direction?? I think of a rack and pinion steering system from automobiles. Is that an idea? That is a very interesting idea
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#52 15
Ronald
(does this mean we are back on the air??) No lathe involved here.
Little wooden rings of varies sizes available at crafting store and the internet, glued together.

The 2nd photo is a mast step, showing one use, currently being used on the triple block/double block bench test. Results on that test later on.
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#50 15
@RossM

Hi Ross
"Do you use twisted string for sheeting or braided string on your schooner?"
For my schooner, the sheet is a white braided line—normally used for carp fishing—with extremely high tensile strength (you can see it in the videos I attached).
The sheet rigged with the classic block-and-tackle system is there purely for aesthetic reasons during static display; it isn't actually used during RC sailing.

I gather you used that block-and-tackle setup to faithfully replicate the one on the real Bluenose, just as I had imagined.
The issues I raised won't necessarily occur. Before abandoning or changing the system, it’s worth running some tests; there might not be any major snags. At least, that’s what I hope.

With those diameters, the sheets snapping is the least of your worries. Other components (winch, boom, mounts, etc.) would break long before those lines did.

In any case, the aspect I consider most important (more so than points 1, 1a, and 1b) is point number 2.
Did you consider what I wrote? Is it understandable, or is the translation unclear?

Regardless, I won't be modifying my schooner's system; it’s fine as it is now. Besides, no one has really solved the problem—except by oversizing the rudders.
However, for a future sailing model, I’m thinking about a new system that would allow the boom to tack (independently of the rudder movement) while simultaneously letting me haul in or ease out the sheet.
Liked by Ronald
#49 18
@AlessandroSPQR
thank you for you time and effort in this analysis.

First off, this block and tackle system is just to keep with scale of the full sized BLUENOSE. The size of the string used for the main sheet is 1.5 mm. It is definitely oversized for the work it is supposed to do. It is rated at 95 pounds break strength. 6 strands of it would be 570 pounds.

Do you used twisted string for sheeting or braided string on you schooner?
I did find photos of the block and tackle on full sized BLUENOSE. Understanding how it works, I tried to create the same mechanical design, in miniature. Looking at the block and tackle that I rigged, it looks wrong.
I will un-do the rigging of the block and tackle and clean up the rigging of the sheet.
weight of sheeting
If my sheet was scaled up to the BLUENOSE, it would be a 36mm rope. BLUENOSE appears to be using about a 20mm rope. I have a 0.34mm braided thread I will try, to see if that will lighten the load on the block and tackle.

My counterweight is 1kg. I will start to lighten it to see what force is needed to open the the block and tackle.

When I change over to the 0.34 mm line I will check to see if it needs less load to open up the block and tackle.

A 0.75mm string is rated for 41 pounds. That is approximately the total weight of the model. 0.34 mm string will be one quarter of the 0.75 cross section, so maybe 10 pounds?? With 6 lines in the block and tackle to produce rating of 60 pounds or 1.5 times the weight of the entire vessel.

So, first job is to get the block and tackle working better.
At least it works, TEST #1: PASSED
On to test #2
Let me know of any progress on your gaff sail controls
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#48 18
@RossM
Hi Ross.
I’ve reviewed the photos and the text, so I have a few questions.
_Everything is perfectly clear; there are no ambiguous points—you explained yourself very well.
I hope to do the same, though I’m worried the translation might let me down._

1. You used a block-and-tackle system with two blocks: one triple block and one double block (the triple block is the moving one, and the double block is fixed).
This is a typical setup—the classic mainsail tackle.
This configuration allows you to reduce the required effort by a 6:1 ratio. In other words, as you know, there are six rope segments supporting the load.
The force is therefore reduced sixfold (Mechanical Advantage = 6).
So, for example, if you need to lift 60 kg, you would need a force of 10 kg (ideally disregarding friction; in real-world, non-ideal situations, friction reduces this ratio).
Put another way—looking at it in reverse—if your winch can lift 1 kg, a tackle set up this way allows you to lift 6 kg.
Bear in mind, however, that to haul in one segment of rope, you need to pull in six times that amount. For instance, if the boom needs to move (move away or come closer) by 1 meter, you have to haul in or let out a full 6 meters of sheet.
So, be aware that if you want to move the sheet by five centimeters, you have to haul in 30 centimeters.

My questions and points of uncertainty are as follows:
Was this choice necessary—even mandatory—based on a calculation of the forces involved? In other words, did you know that your sail area could subject the winch to a load far exceeding the winch's maximum limit? For example: did you estimate that the sail might generate a load of 5 kg—while your winch can only pull 1 kg without overheating—so you adopted this block-and-tackle configuration to move the boom smoothly by applying 6 kg of force (or actually less, due to friction)?
Or did you choose a two-block system—one with three sheaves and one with two—simply because that is how it is done in reality, how it appears on the actual Bluenose, and you wanted to remain faithful to the scale reproduction?

1a. Whatever reason led you to use a tackle system with a three-sheave block and a two-sheave block, I have some reservations.
First of all, in my opinion, the line only runs smoothly as long as tension is maintained on both blocks.
Unfortunately, as all of us ship modelers have observed, scale rigging behaves very differently from real rigging. Let me use the ropes on my model's cannons as an example:
A real rope with a diameter of 3 or 5 cm—or better yet, 10 cm—will settle onto the deck or hang down under its own weight in the way we all consider natural.
That same rope in scale, however, will remain raised, suspended unnaturally in mid-air, or take on a completely unrealistic shape unless it is treated with paint or tamed with glue.
My concern is that the Bluenose's line—when not under tension (i.e., when the two blocks aren't being pulled taut in opposite directions)—will tend to assume odd positions and risk becoming tangled.
I hope that doesn't happen; I am counting on the fact that your larger scale allows you to use much thicker ropes, which should behave more like the real thing.

1b. What keeps the boom—and consequently the three-way block—under tension? The answer (as seen in the photos you posted) is the suspended weight: the jar with the red lid.
Okay, but what will replace this force when sailing? You’ll probably say the wind.
Well, I’m concerned that since the wind isn't always present, the tension might slacken at times, potentially leading to tangles.
I don't mean to be a pessimist; I’m just warning you about potential issues.

2. However, the issues mentioned so far aren't major, and—most importantly—they won't necessarily occur.
I repeat: I hope the scale of your model allows the sheet to have the right thickness and weight so that its behavior mimics the real thing.
The problem I see as quite difficult to solve, however, is the actual control of the mainsail via the boom's movement.
Judging by your photos, I see the sheet connecting the boom to the winch via the block-and-tackle system.
In this case—aside from the presence of the block-and-tackle—the setup looks identical to mine (along with the associated limitations).
Let me explain: With the boom fully out (for example, on a broad reach or a run), you might decide to sheet in the mainsail (to switch to a beam reach and then a close-hauled course), thereby retracting the sheet to its minimum length. In this scenario, you simply command the RC winch to wind in.
With the sheet fully hauled in—at its minimum length—if you want to let the boom out, you have to send the reverse command to the winch to allow the sheet to extend.
But—and this is important—that action won't provide the force needed to actually push the boom open. What will act as the counterweight (the jar with the red lid) to open the boom and let the sheet unspool? As we said, it’s the wind.
Okay, so you’re building an open system, just like the one I made.
The problem is that you don't have two opposing forces—like in the closed system used to move the yard of a square-rigged sail—capable of pulling the boom to either side; you can only haul in or ease out the sheet. Essentially, you cannot mechanically force the boom to move left or right.
Therefore, during a change of tack—whether tacking or gybing—the boom won't be mechanically controlled; instead, it will swing to the other side naturally, following the hull's position and the wind direction, and adjusting itself to the new situation.
And this brings us to the problem I mentioned earlier: when tacking—and perhaps gybing—at low speeds (with little momentum), changing tacks using only the rudder is difficult and might not succeed.
As you well know, on full-sized sailing ships, the rudder's limited effectiveness is aided by the sails, which are manipulated to assist the maneuver.
However, with a scale sailing model, we don't have full control over the sails—or rather, we do for square sails, but not for gaff sails (i.e., those controlled by a boom).

I’m working on a way to solve this problem.
Liked by Ronald
#47 18
@AlessandroSPQR
The MAIN SHEET extended out

video on the operation of it soon

You are correct, high level of force is needed to operate a triple block.
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#46 18
@AlessandroSPQR
To the top, the DOUBLE BLOCK
To the bottom, the TRIPLE BLOCK on the MAIN BOOM
The red is the container full of water, the counterweight for the test
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#44 18
@AlessandroSPQR

As promised, the MAIN SAIL BOOM with triple block & double block (no sails in place).
To the left vertically, is the LOWER MAIN MAST
To the right horizontally, is the MAIN BOOM
To the far right is the MAIN WINCH
To centre lower is the board supporting the counter weight for the test
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#43 22
@AlessandroSPQR

Small question. When you were using three way pulleys, were you using twisted string for the sheet or braided string for the sheet? If this doesn't translate well let me know and I will clarify my question
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#42 22
@AlessandroSPQR I recognize the issue that you are writing about. The main mast will carry about 7 square feet of sail, so I will do my counter weight to the boom at that weight to see if the sheet can remain untangled. the blocks won't be free to rotate so I am hoping they won't tangle
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#41 23
@RossM
Using three-way pulleys is a very challenging and interesting proposition; the line tends to get jammed.
In an open system like the one I used (where the sheets are free to be shortened or not), the boom—relying solely on the wind acting on the sail—will struggle to unspool the line.
If, on the other hand, the system is closed, the line is kept under tension by a counter-line, but then we run into the problem of having a fixed opening angle rather than a variable one.
In any case, there is no point in me racking my brains over it; I’ll wait to see your results, as I’m counting on the fact that you have a perfectly clear idea of ​​what needs to be done.
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#40 23
@AlessandroSPQR
Okay then, order has been made. Next up will be bench test of the main boom. The excitement there will be the triple block that the main sheet runs through, the same as full sized BLUENOSE. The block is walnut wood, the sheaves are birch. The sheet travel length is about 120 cm. This may take 3 days, the mast hasn't been stepped on the bench yet
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#39 23
If you can figure this out, you win a prize. That was the new video yesterday of the powered winch running the STAYSAIL
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#37 23
@AlessandroSPQR This was just the test on the bench, but it is radio controlled.
servos & switches near top,
receiver left side below it,
motors batteries, right below,
receiver battery, blue,
double drum winch, lower right
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#36 23
@RossM
Yes, I remember that video—incredible skill.
When all the rigging (which I believe is currently operated manually) is controlled by remote-operated winches, it will be a masterpiece.
Liked by hermank
#35 24
Alessandro

I don't have the capacity to move any larger video but this is it under radio control
Little stick in the middle is the position of the leech of the foresail
Tall stick is where the main mast will be
Stick on the other side is the luff of the foresail
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#34 28
@AlessandroSPQR
I have the original testing equipment. The original was simply a manual test. If I pulled on the starboard sheet, it moved to the starboard side. if I pulled on the port sheet, it moved to the port side. I should now add the winch to see if it can successfully be done remotely.
1) Little stick on the right represents the foremast
2) Tall stick on the left represents the main mast
3) Little stick towards the left represents the leech of the foresail

Give me a couple of days
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#33 30
@RossM
Spectacular, brilliant, and complex.
To fully grasp it, I need to see how it works—but that’s just a limitation on my end, so don’t worry about it.
This is exactly the kind of original, fascinating work I’m passionate about and follow closely—the sort of thing I was discussing with Col.
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#32 31
Alessandro,

I see where your confusion is and I will lead you through to understanding.

Firstly, I am using 5 winches. 3 winches are single drum. 2 are double drum.

The single drums are:

1) jumbo jib, lowest of the 3 jibs
2) foremast winch
3) mainmast winch

These operate in the conventional manner that you are familiar with, a single sheet to the boom. The JUMBO JIB on the Bluenose has a boom. Note that, with the winch motors all the same, the single drum design is much bigger than the double drum design. The single drum gathers up and releases much more line than the double drum, just as you would expect.

The double drums are the special use drum. The sails controlled by these 2 winches are high above the deck. The sails aloft must go AROUND another object to move from side to side, (unlike the single drum boom controlled sails lower to the deck). The JIBS winch must control 2 sails, JIB TOPSAIL & JIB AROUND the luff of the JUMBO JIB below them. The JIBS winch will carry 4 sheets
1) JIB TOPSAIL port sheet
2) JIB TOPSAIL starboard sheet
3) JIB port sheet
4) JIB starboard sheet
The good part is that the travel distance is short, so the drum can be small. Yes, in this case, one drum takes up a pair of starboard sheets while the opposite drum releases the pair of port sheets, and vice versa when the motor is reversed.

The last double drum is the one that you inspired. The STAYSAIL winch. This is the most complex of the winches. The STAYSAIL winch must GUIDE the luff of the STAYSAIL back from the FOREMAST, along the side of both FORESAILS, behind both FORESAILS and forward to the FOREMAST, on the other side from it's start point. I believe that in my build blog there is a video demostrating the movement of the STAYSAIL, being tested on the bench.
This is alot of information to absorb. Let me know which part is confusing and I will clarify further
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#31 32
@RossM
Hi Ross, sorry for the delay.

Even though I really ought to be focusing solely on the design of the planing hull—which has nothing to do with sails and rigging—I find myself thinking about how to improve the sail control system I used on my schooner.
I’m not entirely happy with my method; while it works well for adjusting to various points of sail, it doesn't help much during tacking or jibing maneuvers.
Since I plan to build another one sooner or later, I’m always looking for inspiration and ideas.
So far, I haven't found a system that’s quite as satisfactory as I’d like.

Yours is one of the most interesting, but—as I mentioned—I do have one lingering doubt.

So, let's get to the point:
If I recall correctly, you used winches with custom-made drums (they looked great) that would take up the sheet on one side while releasing it on the other.
In my opinion, this system is perfect for controlling square-rigged yards.
I say this because a yard is a spar that rotates horizontally around its center point (where it connects to the mast); consequently, the length of line pulled in on the left corresponds exactly to the length released on the right, and vice versa.
In short, the line circuit driven by the winch around the drums maintains a constant length—it’s a closed loop.
However, when handling a gaff sail—like those on a schooner—the line's travel distance cannot remain constant. When sailing close-hauled, the line needs to be shortened as much as possible, whereas on a broad reach or running downwind, it needs to be fully extended.
I fail to see how a closed-loop system like the one you’ve created can manage these varying lengths of sheet attached to the boom.
I believe that while it would work perfectly for controlling the yard of a square sail, it wouldn't work for the boom of a gaff sail.
The problem, as I see it, is that such a system can effectively swing the boom from side to side (locking it in the desired position) but cannot adjust the boom's angle—and thus the sail's setting—relative to the boat.
In short, with a closed-loop system, once the opening angle is set based on the line length within the loop, that angle remains fixed. Yet, an angle that works for one point of sail won't work for another.

I hope my explanation makes sense.
For now, I’ve tried to describe my thoughts using only text, but if necessary—and I suspect it might be—I’ll attach some drawings to better illustrate what I mean.
In the meantime, thank you for your patience.
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#29 35
@RossM
Actually, I am very interested in the sail control system.
It is very complex, but you have no trouble handling multiple controls—even simultaneously—thanks to the skills you developed in your line of work. I remember you telling us that.
However, there is one thing I don't understand.
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#28 38
@AlessandroSPQR

Just to pique your curiousity, a photo of the ballast bulb fin, under construction. Any time that you want this moved to build blog, let me know
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#27 38
@RossM
Thanks, Ross. I’ll go ahead and do that as soon as you’re back at work—though if you like, I can send a message over there in the meantime, without waiting for you to start up again.
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#25 39
@RossM

Compliments on your prints, Ross.


I can't wait for you to start working on the Bluenose again, because I have a few questions for you.
Liked by hermank
#23 39
@jumpugly
It hangs behind the partially complete BLUENOSE, beside the SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL print. and the other end of the room from the RG65 & DF65 (do you think there is a theme here). My wife asks if she has to ask permission to come aboard
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#20 39
@RossM
I completely agree with you, Ross.
The Cutty Sark is also one of my favorites; after all, it was a contemporary of the Thermopylae and even beat it in the famous Tea Race.
My only regret is not having had the time to visit it when I went to London, but I’ll try again.
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#19 39
@jumpugly

Hi Jumpugly, you'll make us jealous, hahahaha.

You wrote "As an aside, I always thought the great artist John Steel "missed the boat" with my favorite sailing ship Thermopylae, as she is under full sail while docked."
Correct and astute observation.
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#16 41
As a follow-up...
These restored box art examples are of kits in a much smaller scale, but beautiful all the same. I was particularly fond of The Bounty as I lived in Hawaii for 3 years while my father was in Vietnam. And the locales affected me deeply and I've never lost my love of the islands.
I was always a bit shocked that they didn't do a larger 1:96 scale Stag Hound, considering Revell's early success with their clipper kits.
Also notice the second Bounty restoration; it is known as a "wrap." That is when all the box sides are preserved as well. In that particular case the Bounty kit was a tie-in with the 1962 movie "Mutiny on the Bounty" with Marlon Brando.
🧐
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#14 41
Alessandro...here is the boxart for my Revell Thermopylae and others. I scanned the box tops of each kit in 8 or 10 300dpi sections and shipped them off to the digital artists at the boxartden.com to be digitally stitched back together for preservation in their archives. I collect Revell's old 1:96 scale sailing ships and the folks at the boxartden are always happy to add ships to their plastic model box art database. It is a labor of love for them and the modeling community especially when artists like John Steel and Jack Leynnwood were hired by the model companies.

As an aside, I always thought the great artist John Steel "missed the boat" with my favorite sailing ship Thermopylae, as she is under full sail while docked.

😉
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#13 43
@RossM
Ah, okay Ross, you're referring to her past as a training ship for the Swedish Navy; I had misinterpreted the use of the future tense in that sentence.

The story of the three-masted British schooner Sir Winston Churchill is an interesting one.

There are many naval training ships currently sailing the seas and oceans—magnificent vessels.
Now that you mention it, we lost a masterpiece: the ship Cristoforo Colombo. She was the sister ship to the Amerigo Vespucci but was handed over (if I recall correctly) to the USSR as war reparations after World War II.
They eventually scrapped her.
I’ve always been convinced that if she had gone to the UK or France, she would have met a better fate. It’s a shame.
In any case, she wasn't sunk.
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#12 43
@AlessandroSPQR
VICE ADMIRAL FREDRIK HENRIK AF CHAPMAN
Swediish navy
Purchased in 1923 to be used as a training vessel
At one stage the vessel was run around. This reminds me of the 3 masted
British schooner , SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL, also a training vessel, also run aground by her crew.
A problem with training vessels??
Force nothing, waste nothing, leave nothing undone
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#9 44
@RossM
Hi Ross, thanks for the kind words.
It might seem like a given since we’re modelers, but not everyone loves sailing ships—admittedly, with all those sails and rigging, they are more complicated to build and, above all, to sail—so I’m glad you enjoyed the images.

You’ve piqued my curiosity: which navy are you referring to?
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#8 44
@chugalone100
Thanks, Julian; I'm glad you like them. As I mentioned, unfortunately, I wasn't able to take photos of the interior.
If you like sailing ships, I invite you to check out the photos I posted a while back of the Amerigo Vespucci. On that occasion, I was able to take pictures on board and capture plenty of details.

https://model-boats.com/forum/151297
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