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    HSL 102
    by nasraf ๐Ÿ‡ฌ๐Ÿ‡ง ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
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    ๐Ÿ“ HSL 102 part 3
    5 days ago by nasraf ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
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    After a number of days doing other things and being put off working on the HSL due to finding that a couple of the frames I had cut by estimating the form, these were nos. 2 and 3 from the bow were not of the correct size. This, using quite thick 3 mm ply, made it impossible to bend the material adequately to contact the frames and chine stringers, I have very little experience in building models from scratch, in addition if I had managed to form the ply covering, the shape of the bow would all be wrong.

    Another thing I had wrong was to try and form a too big ply sheet, I had managed to do this for the aft end of the boat where there were no complex curves, but at the bow end this was a failure.

    To some extent I think these problems are due to my idea of building the model from the deck up, if it was just frames with fitted stringers the errors would have been obvious much earlier.

    However as this is a bit of an experimental project and all my frames are already glued to the deck and I did not want throw it away and start again, I decided to bodge it up, hopefully no one noticing when the hull is finished. This has required lots of little packers to be added around the wrong sized frames. It also took me some time before I gave up on trying to fit large plywood panels in the bow area. I have found that strips of 3 mm ply cut in strips of approx. 15 mm wide can be persuaded to follow the curves required to the first frame from the bow. The bow section I intend to do in solid plywood pieces and sand down to the required shape.

    To day I received the two Chinese ESC's that I obtained from Ali Express after the useful advice from jbkiwi. They were very cheap at about ยฃ 10 for the pair including PayPal exchange costs and delivery, but I think I have probably made another mistake in only getting them with a rating of 30A. They took 21 days from ordering to arrival, but I think a lot of this time was due being in customs in the UK.

    I have tested both of them on my motor test set up and I found they got hot quite quickly. I think the motor I have, probably needs at least a 60 amp ESC, I now know where to get one and for the initial work the 30 amp units will be OK.

    As I had my original defective ESC and this had a finned heat sink, I cut the shrink sleeve off half one of the 30 amp units and glued it to the small aluminium plate heat sink that I found under the sleeve material.

    I then ran the motor for 5 minutes at a moderate speed and I would estimate that the sink got to about 50 degrees centigrade using a 3C 2.8 amp hour battery which will be adequate for the early stage of the project.

    It is now back to the drawing board as I have an idea to effectively mount the motor off the prop shaft and thus simplify the motor/prop shaft coupling.

    I have attached some pics of hull build and esc test set up and modified ESC.
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    ๐Ÿ“ HSL 102
    1 month ago by nasraf ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
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    After starting the build, as a change of scenery I thought, after finding some of the bits, to see how well the electrical items I had worked, mainly the motor and controller.

    I have had the motor and controller a long time and it came from China. As I had never run it I made up a support jig and mounting and fitted a cut down aircraft prop. to give the motor a bit of loading and to determine direction of rotation.

    I thought that these motors were miniature 3 phase induction motors with the electronics producing a variable frequency three phase supply, thus the three supply conductors, but from the little reading I have done on the subject this appears not to be the case. I think they are basically a switched stator relative to permanent magnets embodied in the rotor. However they can still be reversed like a 3 phase induction motor, by interchanging two conductors.

    After I had made the test rig and got out my now very old Solartron variable DC supply, I gathered up my odd assortment of radio gear to test and drive the motor speed controller.

    First one tried and technically the best, a 5 channel Spektrum Dx5 transmitter and AR600 receiver. Failed to get this one binded so gave up. Then put together a simple 3 channel Zebra unit, with this I could control the motor and run a couple of servos. Was quite pleased and when I reversed two connecting conductors the motor changed direction. Unfortunately this situation did not last very long and the motor ceased functioning, there had not been any significant load applied and nothing got hot to the touch. I have read that these Chinese controllers are not very reliable, so I am looking for suggestions on what to replace it by.

    I have added a couple of pictures of the the test set up, it will be back to woodwork to morrow.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    1 month ago by Martin555 ( Fleet Admiral)
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    I am assuming that you have tested the output and input of the speed controller,
    Is there an overload protection circuit on the speed controller ?


    Martin555.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    1 month ago by jbkiwi ( Rear Admiral)
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    The ESC cannot be reversed. They are quite a good controller and can be programmed for brake, cell nos, frequency, direction, start force etc (I use quite a few in planes with no failures, - the ones I have are branded 'Flyermate') but are only capable of one direction as mentioned (actually using an 80A one in my new airboat). If you reverse the input polarity you will kill them. I think they may be the same as the 'red brick'models Hobby King sells in a different colour. Pics are 2 egs of brushless car/boat ESCs you can use (depends on how much you want to spend) Check out 'Brushless ESCs' on Ali Express.

    You can try re-programming the ESC but you will have to have it connected to a working TX/ RX set (they sense throttle position,-full/off and must be initially set to each TX). I can send you the programming instructions to try if you require them, (pretty sure they'd be the same (they have a main menu and a number of 'side menus' signaled by 'tunes and beeps)
    JB
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    30 days ago by nasraf ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
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    Hi PD

    Thanks for the comments, from your picture of the ESC on your comment it looks like the same type as I have, see attached pics.

    I did not realise that they have to be matched to a different Rx, perhaps that is what the second thin blue box does. I changed the Rx during my experiments so that may be the problem.

    I will set the system up again to morrow and have another go.

    I have read a bit more about brush less DC motors and I think you can change direction of rotation like you can on a three phase induction motor by just interchanging any two of the three conductors going to the motor, the supply to the ESC cannot be changed as this is polarity sensitive.

    If it works, in the boat I could fit a relay in the motor lines to do this. It would then be a bit like the real boat and the Napier Sea Lion gearbox set up. The Rttl I had a ride on had sea lions , it is a long time ago when I did it. I can remember poking about on the boat when waiting for the dingy that transferred you from boat to boat when doing the DI's on the VHF radio and looking round the engine room. As the boat was never used, I was the only occupant and can recall the engines each had a great big lever on it, I am not sure if this was the clutch and the reverse gear selector, this function could not not done from the bridge only by the poor engineers in engine compartment. No health and safety concerns in those days !. I can also remember when fiddling about with a co2 fire extinguisher letting one off by accident.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    29 days ago by jbkiwi ( Rear Admiral)
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    Hi nasraf, you can change the motor rotation by swapping any 2 of the three motor leads, (or in the ESC programming or radio, - ie, reversing the channel) but not the input/battery leads as we have mentioned. It might not be advisable to interfere with the motor wires as if there are any problems with switching, you could destroy your motor and/or ESC. Not sure what the small box is on the RX lead (mine don't have one).- maybe a ferrite ring for interference, some type of BEC? Does this ESC have a BEC in it?, -any info on it at all?

    I'd recommend buying a proper boat/car ESC.

    Another thought about your ESC stopping, what voltage were you using to power the ESC? Can you give us all the info from the label as the pic is not clear.
    JB
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    29 days ago by nasraf ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
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    Hi JB

    Thanks for your comments.

    A not very successful day today having another go at trying to get the esc to run the motor.

    Initially tried with 3 channel FM Tx and Rx could not get any response from motor but could drive ordinary servos through all 3 channels. Had power to ESC from variable power supply most of time between 6 and 7 volts with current monitor current that never went above 100 mA. After messing about for some time the ordinary servos ceased operating, I think the ESC had damaged the 3 channel Rx.

    Reverted to 2 channel Zebra with ordinary servos and this worked OK but did not chance to try motor ESC again so gave up.

    There is no indication on what the input voltage should be on the ESC label only 60 A which I assume is reference to 60 amps. For the short period that I got the motor to run on the previous attempt I measured a current of about 4 amps at 7 volts.

    As I now regard the ESC as a Rx destroyer I do not intend to operate it again.

    The blue covering is shrink sleeve so I cut this off to have a look at what is inside. You cannot see much of what is in the small assy. incorporated in the control loom from the Rx, only three wires in and out, there appears to be 4 IC's on the board with a common metal heat sink attached to them. The main power control has quite a lot of components and is obviously the three power switching channels with an attendant heat sink. ( see pics )

    There is no desperate hurry to get the motor running, as there is a lot of boat building to do. I will see what there is out there that will do the job.
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    ๐Ÿ“ HSL 102
    1 month ago by nasraf ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
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    Thanks to the inspiration of jbkiwi and the purser with their models of the early Royal Air Force High Speed Launches I have decided to have a go at one. jbkiwi sent me some out line drawings and an indication of the boat cross sections and stations.

    From this I produced some drawings of a model 1 metre long and have got started. As I have found a R/C transmitter and receiver that was intended for the Valsheda and some servos I now intend to make it a model to sail. I have also found an out runner motor a ESC that I once intended to use on Kiel Kraft Super 60 that has laid in my loft for the last 55 years, not likely now I shall ever fly it.

    I am using a bit of an experimental build process. I have made a base for the build from some 3/4 inch plywood stiffened by a couple of pieces of steel square section. On to this I have laid a sheet of 3 mm ply which will form the deck of the launch, when the structure is complete I will cover the deck with strip decking. Hopefully I will sheet the sides of the hull with 3 mm ply, if it will bend enough, the bottom of the hull I may plank as it may be a bit curvy for sheeting.

    Did very well so far for most of the materials, got the plywood base and a big bit of 3 mm ply as off cuts from a ply wood stockist for ยฃ 5, my one bit of hardwood section from B & Q cost nearly as much. Nice surprise in B & Q this morning, I wanted some small wood screws and I came across open bins where you can pick and mix, and you pay by the packet, I had a small one at ยฃ 2.50 and you can get a very large number of 1/2 and 3/4 inch small screws for your money.

    I have now assembled most of the details of the hull structure, at present only held together with screws and rubber bands. I also use a length of 6 mm threaded rod and nuts to hold the frames in position during the build. When I am happy with things I will glue it together.

    I have attached a couple of pictures of the assembly so far.

    How big a prop. should I use, I do not want to go very fast and I expect the motor is more powerful than I need but I can not turn the throttle up too far.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    1 month ago by Martin555 ( Fleet Admiral)
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    Keep up the good work.

    Martin555.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    1 month ago by jbkiwi ( Rear Admiral)
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    Hi nasraf, that was quick, looking good so far, - drawings look great !. If you need any close up pics (ex RNZAF photos) , let me know. The British boats are the same so the details will be relevant and the pics cover all angles, and there's an excellent shot of the wheelhouse interior (dashboard instruments, wheel etc). You can pick up a lot of useful details from these. What diam and kva is your motor ? (if it's not much more than 2000kv you should be fine), you can always go down a cell count to reduce power (ie if the motor takes 3-5 cells, use a 3) If using one motor, I find that a small prop spinning fast is better than a big prop. as you don't get the torque roll as much, and your maneuvering is more refined, ie, not such savage stops and starts, - more scale like. You will need a boat or car ESC with reverse, as your plane ESC will only be forward.

    I used two 28x45mm 2000kva water cooled brushless in-runners running on 2200mAh LiPos with contra rotating 26mm 3 blade props which makes the boat handle very well (perfect turns left and right).
    Using twins is preferable on this boat as it's quite narrow, and at 3ft might have a tendency to torque roll on turns, and may not run level. If you need to use 1 motor, I would suggest keeping the shaft angle as small as possible with the prop as close to the hull as possible to help reduce this, (leave enough room between the hull and prop to allow you to go up a size or two in props if necessary). If you look at my video in the media gallery, you will see the result of my set-up (cruising past -planing- is only 2/3 throttle) and can be run for around an hour at varied settings with the batteries used. Boat weighs around 2800g with batteries.

    This might give you an idea of what to expect, (depending if you need it to plane or not.) Props bought from Ali Express, cheap and good. They have left and right hand and many different types.-2 blade, 3 blade etc.
    JB

    PS, you'd probably get some good money for the Super 60 if it's a complete kit, people collect these vintage model kits and they are not cheap to buy (plus Keil Kraft is no more,- now Vintage Model Shop)) repros are around 100GBP - saw an original kit go for $200 US in 2016.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    1 month ago by Rookysailor ( Commander)
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    Looking forward to the next part...๐Ÿ˜Š

    Cheers, Pete
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    1 month ago by nasraf ( Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class)
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    Thanks JB for advice and further offers of help when I get nearer to doing the detail stuff on the deck.

    I have had a bit of a technical day to day, see latest bog update, not very successful.

    As you can see I have a 1000v out runner motor which is quite nicely made, but I think now, no motor controller.

    As I am unlikely to be a great sailer of the boat, I think I will stick with one motor and take your advice on prop positioning.

    Unfortunately as far as selling is concerned the Super 60 has been built, so no kit form.
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    ๐Ÿ’ฌ Re: HSL 102
    1 month ago by jbkiwi ( Rear Admiral)
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    Hi nasraf, 1000kv should be fine going by your requirements. Just a thought, - if you haven't got this far already, an easy way to get the bow profile is to use shaped ply 'stringers' instead of trying to bend the stringers round a tight curve. This was a method used by Vic Smeed for his plans. I did this on my HSL. MTB and Seaplane Tender and it makes life much simpler. Just rebate the stringers at the back end of the ply .
    JB
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