Hi Roy
I have used milk bottles in my model barges, but really they are not carrying anything and you only see the sides not the bottoms so if you make a false bottom in side the hull you will reduce the displacement and hence need less ballast. For display you could fit a removeable bottom.

This is of interest as my Olympic 1:96 requires 56kg of ballast. I have the hull for the Mauretania at 1:96 and am thinking I will do something similar. My large puffer has a tank open to the outside and I flood this to water level using a fish tank air tap to seal the tank. Using a large SLA 12v 12aHr battery causes the model to settle and removing and opening the tap lets it rise making recovery fairly easy as the water escapes thro the bottom.

Could work with your barges as heavy models take ages and lots of power to move or stop. At full speed the Olympic takes 3 boat lengths (27 feet) at full speed to stop and not much less to respond to the rudder.

I can sympathise with you sentiment about time available and other interests and models. Funnily enough I also have a 10th scale fishing boat to finish and I have not touched my model train for about four years now, but someday.

regards
Dave

Hi Dave I have 2 barges but it is all very bulky so probably 2 side by side. The problem, isn't there always a problem? Well it is the barges they have to float down to a comparable level with the towboat. This has just over an inch freeboard.

I do nor want extra weight so they will probably flood down when in the water. The barges may weigh 40 pounds each easily when full of water.

Even then it will be over 6 feet long and needs to have a quick assembly at the pond side. But the weight of water in the barges should introduce some interesting manoeuvring.
All I have to do is to live long enough to finish it but as always there are other pressures as I want my model railway working before Christmas and there is a fishing boat to finish. Don't ask about the rest!
regards
Roy

Sounds fascinating. I have to ask, how many barges with loads are you planning? I will certainly have a look
Dave

Hi Dave to answer your other question most of the Towboats have fixed korts and remember the power of the engines is enormous. American Beauty can be seen with 30+ barges in front.

They have 2 rudders ahead of the fixed Kort and a single one behind. The controls are with large levers either side of a chair. Have a look at a day on a towboat on youtube.

My guess is that the power needed to turn a Kort with thousands of horsepower on the propellor would not be economical.
The towboats are very low in the water and they vary in size as to what job they do. Up to 6 barges can be attached with chains widthwise and perhaps 7 or 8 more in length. There is a video of American Heritage pushing 42 barges, a barge can take the equivalent of a thousand trucks!

The A.B. is among the largest and then when the barges are separated for onward travel smaller towboats do that and you end up with the smallest towboat that shifts single barges around. Mainly grain and coal and iron ore and oil but others are fitted for containers etc.
The Mississippi and Ohio rivers are a backbone of the US running from Minnisota down to the Gulf of Mexico The boats never stop except to load and discharge and the crews are ferried out to them, the journeys take many days night and day.
Have a read it is fascinating!
Regards
Roy

Hi Dave give me time on this one, but the principle is to switch the rudder servo signal wire either between the receiver (for control) or the servo tester manually set to neutral.

The switching is done by a 9gram servo with a microswitch connected via a Y connection to the esc servo. i.e. the 9 gram servo moves with the esc.

So which ever direction the motor is going forward or reverse only the rudder in the prop wash will operate the other rudders being held in place by the servo tester control.

So for a set of rudders they will either be connected to the receiver or a servo tester. Reversing the esc alters the servo driven microswitch and the other set of rudders are connected to the receiver and the previously moving ones now return to neutral.

Ebay has the little blue servo testers at a couple of quid each and 9 gram servos at a £.
I have tried it out and it works.
regards
Roy

Hi Roy
Interesting set up. If I understand correctly you have two Props and each prop has three rudders both fore and aft. I have never seen a rudder placed ahead of a prop or Kortz. I always thought it was the propwash acting on the rudder that produced the sideways thrust.
As you say anything in front of the prop will interfere with its operation if not in line.
I agree that operating the rudders according to the direction of travel should work.

It's possible that fixing the forrard rudders to straight ahead and linking the rear rudders would also work with independent motor control.

I would be interested to see how you proposed system performs.

What electronic system are you using for the control?

regards
Dave

Perhaps you would like a story connected to me receiving my birthday present of American Beauty.
It was July 2001 and my son was holidaying in the Mississippi area and saw a large towboat for the first time and decided it would be a present for his dad!

He went to a model shop and ordered the kit plus 2 barges to be sent low cost by container to the UK. (They group stuff together until it is viable to send)

The kits arrived very quickly, I was surprised and checked the packaging. The cost was enormous over £200. Which was more than the kit cost at that time!

The model shop had just sent it all by air instead of following the instructions.
When I undid the packaging the kit was there plus another large kit for another boat, not the barges.

I contacted my son who at the time lived in Germany and he contacted the model shop and they said sorry but..... I think they had a staff member who was not the brightest soul etc. They said send it back not offering to foot the cost!

I said I would persue it this end and contacted the importers J Perkins I think. I spoke to a lady and she was very helpful and said she would sort it out as she was travelling to USA in that area as part of her business.
Now you may wonder why I mentioned the dates? Well time was moving on the lady mentioned arrived in USA. It was now August and a day or so later 9/11 happened.
So my kind lady was stranded in USA for a week, but during that time she arranged for 2 barge kits to come to me.
When she arrived back I was asked where my local model shop was and 2 days later they phoned me saying they had a parcel for me.

So the importers in the UK really stepped up to the plate and sorted out a difficult situation many thanks to them.
The extra kit I sold at cost to a Magazine although I do not remember it being reviewed. My son got most of the postage money back from Barclaycard.
All is well that ends well but it would kave been much better if the kit had been worth all that effort!

Hope I have not bored you all.
Roy

Hi Dave read your post with interest. The American Beauty has 3 rudders per prop, 6 in all. So you can treat each set of 3 rudders together or you can pair off the logical stern rudders. This leaves the other 4 rudders to work in pairs.

Depending on boat direction there is a set of rudders in the way of the water to the Kort, so if they all work together there will always be a disturbance ahead of the water entering the nozzle.
My idea was to use the direction of the motor to determine which set of rudders would be activated and return the other set to neutral. I have worked out the electronics to make this happen.

Just need to finish the model!
regards
Roy

If it gives you enjoyment and produces a good result then this is why most modellers build their creations. In this modern throw away world it will be those who possess the skills who will save our planet and modelling certainly develops those in abundance.

I'm in the process of building my 4th Dumas kit (Lord Nelson Victory Tug). Each kit has issues and needs fine tuning to be built. In my mind I don't think Dumas kits work well for novice builders. My builds have and are turning out well and I like the finished boat.
Rick

Hi Roy
Like you I try to be positive but sometimes it helps new modellers to avoid buying something that may not be suitable for a novice. Sites like this and others do help solve some of the issues that others have faced.
On my Al Khubar the Nozzles were fixed and had a rudder attached to the back of each Nozzle. The rudders were both connected together and controlled by one servo. On my Eldergarth the nozzles were both steerable again connected together and controlled by one servo. I used separate ESCs for the motors (brushed) on each model and by using two sticks I was able to steer both models on a sixpence. Both models reversed using the rudders and motors to control the reverse direction.
I still have my Mercantic but it needs a complete refit as all the Cascamited planks have split along the glue lines☹️. I have seen some remarkably similar copies using plastic hulls and bearing a different name. It's possible the copyright has expired. I just hope they use much better wood. Also too expensive for me!
Dave

Hi Guys,
I have been following this thread and at the very good writeup from roycv.
I think it would be great if we had more writeup's like this, it would also help many other model boat makers in there decision as to get a certain kit or not.

Obversely it is only the option of the reviewer so care should be taken when writing the review as we don't want any member being taken to court for any reason, but an honest review regarding the quality and ease of build would be good.

Just a thought.

Martin555.

Hi Dave I do not like posting reviews like this but that is the way it was.

I had been considering how to operate the rudders on American Beauty and it does need some thought and that was the reason I stopped just a few months ago.

If I am correct, the way they should turn for going astern is not obvious. I devised a system where the rudders were in neutral and only the rudder receiving the prop wash was activated.

You mention Mercantic and on the 'other' web site there seems to be a chance this may well be re-issued from Billing.
But being a mean old b****r I expect it will be too expensive for me.
regards
Roy

Hi Roy
Thanks for you informative review of this kit.👍 I went and looked at the kit via a supplier and see they use stamped mahogany and birch for the superstructure. Reminded me of the first model I built a Billings Mercantic that was all wood and I well remember the struggle I had with the wood in the kit. That was in the mid 1960's and you would hope more recent kits would have improved. Fortunately we have far more help and suppliers to enable better construction techniques but at the price being charged I believe I would be disappointed in the quality of material and lack of a full size plan.
Interesting comments re the Kort nozzles, I have used on my models with commercial and home made variants with the close fitting props. They do produce lots of thrust with the correct propeller and will clog like any prop in a weed situation. But yes they can jam if a twig or lily stem gets caught.
I hope we do see a build blog of this model at some time.😊
Dave

Hi Bruce I have an old kit from 2001 and the wood was rather poor in quality. I have the glass fibre hull, I think now it is plastic. The under water extras are rather expensive and I made my own, not easy and took me nearly a week in the workshop.
The fittings I had were also poor quality and nearly half of them were replaced by Dumas.

There is a build blog on you tube where the builder takes a shaped piece of balsa out of the box, paints it and sticks it in place, it must be the worst advice on model boat building ever!

Perhaps things have improved now but I would inspect the kit before buying it. I think they are still die stamping the wood rather than laser cutting it.

My model is only part built and I keep putting it back on the shelf and doing something else. The plans are about half scale and do need a thorough reading.

The method of making handrails etc is to give you some wire and drawings and you will need to solder them as superglue is not strong enough. There are no deck stanchions with the kit, but they can be plainly seen on the prototype. There are various balsa deck ventilators etc for which balsa is not a good idea being too open grained.

The plus side is that she is a really handsome boat and there is an excellent high quality video of her on the Mississippi on You Tube taken from a circling drone which gives all the detail.
Also the story of the Mississippi and tributaries and the towboats is fascinating and there is lots to learn on You tube. She also has a sister ship called Crimson Glory.

There seem to be some colour descrepancies between the kit and the prototype.
There is a kit for barges, don't bother, it is just lengths of ply, easy to fabricate yourself.

I have seen a model (on-line) here in the UK where the builder gave up on the wood and used plastic for the superstructure.
This kit came as a present, with my experience now, I would scratch build it from plans.

Sorry for being so negative but it does not stand comparison with current model boat kit expectations and quality. I used to review and build kits for a UK magazine I think I would have sent this kit back to the manufacturers. I did actually refuse to review and build one UK model boat kit, it was so bad.
Maybe it has been improved over the last 20 years, I hope so, but look before you buy.

Just a note if you do buy the kit. Do not bother with expensive close fitting propellors for the Kort nozzles as the full size experience is that they can jam up on the occasional logs. The captains found that ordinary round tipped props chewed up the logs and did not jam so causing delays.

It is a great pity that Towboatjoe web site was removed after he died as he was a fount of knowledge.

regards
Roy

Hi Bruce,
It looks quite a complicated model but i am certain you will make it with next to no bother at all.
I have noticed that the prices vary quite a lot so it will pay to have a good look around.


Martin555.