@Ronald
Hi Ron, thanks for your efforts to make me understand.
Unfortunately, I don't speak English very well.
I understood well enough with the pictures.
However, I know the difference between a tack and a gybe (both theoretically and practically on sloops).
I don't know if this is what you wanted me to understand.

Gary Webb sent this to me several years ago, maybe it will help others too. He wrote it when I was first getting to know the model schooner’s sailing characteristics.

Gary has designed and built several schooner models and really enjoys them.

Hi Ron,
Our little sailboats, or any boat at all, is a basket of compromises. Any sailboat will "slide in a crosswind".
We call that "making leeway" and if it is excessive, more dagger board area might help.

Coming about in a wind - I presume we are talking about "tacking", turning up into the wind, and numerous factors affect this.
Speed (inertia) is needed, fall off (turn away from the wind) a bit to gather speed before starting the turn into the wind.

Balance of the sail plan is a biggie. That is the for and aft placement of the center of sail area relative to the center of the underwater lateral area of the hull.
Check this by sailing on a "beam reach" (a straight line with wind coming directly at the side of the boat)
Ideally she will hold this course all by herself with rudder neutral (straight ahead). If she has any tendency to turn away from the wind, she will be reluctant to tack.

Of course the scale like full length keel will be somewhat reluctant to turn.
A model will also need a larger rudder than scale, but it appears you have already provided a somewhat oversize rudder.

In a pinch, if she won't turn into the wind, she will probably be able to turn away from the wind (jibe) and circle around to the new heading.

Cheers, let me know how it goes,
Gary

Hi Ronald I remember doing this course in the mid 1980s, I treated our son to several Courses, well we both went, with the last one crossing the English Channel to France and returning via the Channel Islands.
He has his own yacht now a Beneteau Oceanis 40 and is qualified as an Off Shore Yachtmaster.

This is me in Australia 4 weeks ago paddling a paddle board, we were staying on his yacht for the weekend.

Roy

@AlessandroSPQR



Here is an interesting video which might help to explain what I understand about how a schooner sails.

Hi Ross you may well be right I have an Inga IV but that was set up as per kit.
Roy

@ChrisF
Hi Chris, I'm very interested in your approach to the problem and what solution you'll adopt.
Yes, a winch (with a reel) is less bulky than a servo-arm.


P.S. I look forward to your thoughts and advice on the planing hull topic.

@Ronald
Hi Ron, I assure you that the model was propelled by the action of direct ventilation on the sails (the aerodynamic effect similar to that which occurs on the wings of an airplane, which RossM and I discussed publicly and privately some time ago).
It's certainly not rebound ventilation (I don't know if you're joking, though).
There's no need to elaborate on the physical reasons for this phenomenon. In any case, on the lake, I found unequivocally that the ship was able to sail upwind.

Excuse me, Ron, but I couldn't understand your statement: "Schooners don't need to tack much going into the wind. Where single-mast sailboats must tack back and forth when sailing into the wind, a schooner can proceed on a slight angle and keep moving forward."
I've reread it several times, but I have no idea what you mean.

Interesting discussion as I'm not too far off having to sort out the operation of the sails on my Fisherman build. I don't have room for a sail arm servo so I've ordered a 2 turn Kingmax winch servo that's arriving tomorrow. I have a couple of RTR yachts but this is my first build with sails and I'm looking forward to that aspect of the build.

Chris

@roycv Hi Roy!
A good lesson on CE:LCR 👍. SKENE'S ELEMENTS OF YACHT DESIGN also has a good discussion on it. I've heard up to 7% CE:LCR for a schooner, but that might apply to the Grand Banks schooners and not the Dutch schooners. Not positive on that point
Absolutely agree with stepping the mast on the keel. Much more stability

Sorry missed the question on masts. The mast will be fitted where ever it needs to go to balance sails etc. I re-positiond the mast on the Bermuda rigged one and filled in the old hole with shaped dowel.
I like to set the mast on the keel not only for convenience when rigging but the bending forces on the mast are further up the mast and it stays straighter. Any bending of the mast spoils the shape of the sails etc.

Roy

Hi I use a method of where to put the sails from an old book by Daniels on the subject.
I first find the centre of lateral resistance of the hull. Easily done in the water when at full displacement. I push around the centre line until the hull moves back without veering to left or right. I stick some builders masking tape on the hull and mark with a pencil, do it a few times.

Next I draw the outline of the sails or perhaps the sails I have, placed as they would be on the model. Create triangles of fore and aft sails i.e. a square sail is divided from one corner to the other. Work out the area of each triangle and acrue them to square inches on either side of the mast.

In each triangle work out the centre, 2 lines one from a corner to the other and then the other corner, where they cross is the centre of area.

On each side of the mast bring the various centres to one group centre. You can do this with construction, I use full size tissue paper for each sail.
For say 2 jibs join up the centres of each sail with a straight line. Proportion the 2 areas to be at a point on the line. For example with one jib twice the area of the other this equates to 3 parts so on the line nearest the greatest area it is one third of the way along the line.

Same thing with the main sail and the jib centres, draw a line between centres proportion the areas and mark a cross. This is the centre of area of the entire sails. This point should be drawn onto the plan and you should position the sails 4% of the water line length ahead of the C of LR.
Sounds complicated but takes only 10 minutes or so.

Guaranteed to be right if you did the arithmetic right. Any problems move the sails around and re-do the maths.

As far as schooners go I am not an expert it is just that they are less twitchy and the keel being longer gives a straighter course . The shape of the keel and subsequent large angle of the rudder means they should be sailed as upright as possible. The reason is that the already canted rudder when heeled over starts to act more like the elevator on an aircraft rather than a rudder.

Hope the above helps,
Roy

@AlessandroSPQR
Moving the fan like how you are demonstrating is not as effective. Remember the air circulates off the back wall of the enclosure thus causing a swirling effect, mini tornado 😱. Instead put the fan on a chair or stool. Turn the speed to lowest possible speed test 1; next the medium speed test 2; and so forth. This allows you to operate the transmitter to see how the sails react in close hauling and running down wind.

Schooners don’t need to tack much going into the wind. Where single mast sailboats must tack back n forth when sailing into the wind, a schooner can proceed on a slight angle an keep moving forward.

Roy knows what the principle of this and can explain it better.

@roycv
Questions first. Are you looking to change the main mast postion to accomodate the 2 masts? That hull you have there is like the original Dutch schooners see Dutch schooner ADELAAR https://adelaar-cruises.com/liveaboard-indonesia/adelaars-historic-past/. The sails on ADELAAR are similar to Ron's schooner

@Ronald

Great Ron, great idea.

Before trying the model on the lake, I also did some tests with the fan (I wanted to test the upwind performance). Watch the videos.

Hi all these are the nearest I have got so far to a top deck arrangement. I make my own sails and masts etc so it is just ideas and suggestions needed.
Roy

Thanks Ronald for the photo.
I have an ordinary yacht hull, see my harbour, which I would like to be a schooner but without the 'long hull' it won't look right. I have been scavenging full size for inspiration but to no avail.

It is 32 inches long with a 4 inch bowsprit, I have the where withall just bereft of an idea!
regards
Roy

@AlessandroSPQR

I will place a room fan on a shelf to simulate the model underway and then see how the sails react to the air movement. I will then operate my transmitter moving the sails. Have you tried this method?

Hi Mike, here are some videos:

I like the schooner Ronald any chance of a photo of the hull out of the water?
Roy

Hi all Gary always cheers me up with his contented smile!

I use much the same systems, I have one in my Gracia that has the whole of the sail mechanism on a length of dowel, which can be removed.
The way I take sheets below decks is to use hard plastic tubing with ferules that come with servos, nice and smooth surface.

Standard size servos are getting very powerful with metal gears and can be used with an arm. They are best extended in their action with a servo extender circuit to 170 degrees movement, very cheap from Ali... Also you can get a tiny plug in which slows the servo down, rather than trying to whip the sails around.

If using a foresail I have a loop harness at the foot of the sail locked in place one end with a bowsie to adjust for wind speed. At the other I have a standard servo with a 2 inch arm which can adjust the wind flow across the jib. This works very well as you can see the increase in speed when in use.

I can do pictures if anyone interested.

Roy

I don’t use spools on any of my sailboats. My larger sailboats use a HiTec HS 765 HB servo with a control arm or the HS322HD with control arm. Plus a few other servos but all use control arms.

Hi Mike,

Do you know what distance you need from full out to close in? My boats have either winches for 40 cm travel for one boat or an arm bolted to a 100 degree rotation on a servo for a 10 cm travel. so step one, how much length?
Ron's idea from Gary Webb is a good tried and true system for more than 10 and less than 40 cm's

Hi Mike, I chose a very simple system, but I don't think it's the best.
When I imagined it, I had no other examples to follow.
I furl the sheet using a winch (in my case, I used two winches to trim six sails).
The sheet is attached to the boom or to a fixed point on the deck.
When taking in the sheet (and therefore for close points, such as sailing close to the wind), I furl it.
When sailing downwind, I unfurl the sheet by letting the wind pull (and therefore unfurl).
I made the mistake of buying a winch with six turns of furling. I had to reduce the furling travel with the radio control settings.
In hindsight, I should have bought a winch with two turns.
You don't need much rope travel.
This system applies to gaff sails, not square sails.
With square sails, it's simpler: with the same winch, one reel reels in and one reel unwinds the two lines (tack and sheet) simultaneously.
To keep the boom low when sailing downwind, I installed a downhaul.

I don't know if I explained myself or if I was helpful, but for details, you can see the description, photos, and video in this thread.

I don't know if I'll adopt the same system in the future; I'm evaluating others.

If you have any other questions, please ask.

https://model-boats.com/forum/128542

Hi Ronald
Thanks to the film, I've come up with even more ideas!

And 1000 thanks for your help, because now my brain is working again and the ideas have taken root.
It's really cool how helpful everyone is here!
Your Michel-C.

@Mike Stoney
You are using the sheets on a spool with a continuous loop and tensioning them correct?

See Gary Webb’s video on Sail Tails regarding how he sets up his rig