Hi Simple,
Re "If someone asks me a question, and I do not know the answer I will probably say, "I don't know but I will try and find out for you".
Exactly!
This is the gist of what dear Albert was saying in many of his oft misquoted comments.
To condense and paraphrase-
'The mind (brain?) is not meant for simply storing facts,
it is for knowing where to find them, and moreover to understand them, their relevance to the matter in hand and what to do with them, as well as to free the imagination to use them as it sees fit.'
Albert again-
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited; imagination encircles the world."
Canny lad Mr Einstein.
Me in an unusually philosophical mood😁

Cheers All, Doug😎

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

DJT is on his way to be the final proof.☹️

Hi Rick, Good to hear from you👍😀 How goes it you?
Re "So it wasn't memorizing as much as knowing how to find the answer."
Absolutely👍👍

I recall from my college days that it dawned on me early on that we were being 'taught' not by rote as in school (with some notable exceptions) but SHOWN how to THINK and work things out for ourselves. Not just reproduce facts that we had had hammered into us.
We were shown the tools - the rest was up to us!
Being an independent sort of spirit I enjoyed that and carried it through to my working life.
Occasionally caused some friction with 'traditionalists' but I got positive results, and that's what mattered. 'Out of the box' rules😁
Cheers, Doug😎

Pat,
Re "what will we all do in the forthcoming war ..."
Once again to quote dear Albert -
"I know not with what weapons WW3 will be fought -
But WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones."

A sombre thought but one I tend to agree with.
I hope, and expect, not to be around to experience it.

Doug

Hi Nick,
More likely it was Samuel Clemens😉

😎

Hey Roy, Was it Mark Twain who said "golf was a good walk ruined"?

These are good for another thread and I agree in the main. When acting as a Bridge TD the most common 'crime' was leading out of turn. It was best to know that by heart otherwise reading it out takes ages.

I think there is a joke about that. Something like an attack outside the public library. It attacted a lot of interest in the media as many did not know they had a public library!
Roy

I remember some of my exams for millwright were open book.So it wasn't memorizing as much as knowing how to find the answer. I think when we build a new boat or restore a boat we look up or ask if anyone knows were to find a solution to a problem.
For me memory is only as good knowing where to find the answer.
Rick

Thats OK but what will we all do in the forthcoming war - where either the inftrastructure is destroyed by EMP or systems are hacked so they can be used

"Never memorise something that you can look up.”

“The only thing that you absolutely have to know, is the location of the library.”

Albert Einstein.

😎

Hi. For what it's worth here is my take on the "Question of The Day" and cheating.
It is a question and not an "Exam of The Day". If it were an exam I surely would not look up stuff on the internet. However I would expect the questions to be confined to what I was educated on or had considerable knowledge of. As it is a question I see no harm in looking up a possible answer on the internet or in one of those things called books. From my experience you rarely find the actual answer, you still have to use your brain to get there. I would not consider it cheating more an education. I have learned an awful lot from QOD. If someone asks me a question, and I do not know the answer I will probably say, "I don't know but I will try and find out for you".

I don't believe that they can get all 30 on the trot that often without going to MR Google.
It cannot be that easy with out of his help. I know I will NOT last this week out without getting one wrong.
Even a while back when I did seek Mr G's help he made me go wrong.
He doesn't always give you the correct answer. HE has done that about 3 times in a row to me, that's why I now give it a go at guessing it.
If lucks not on my side then I check to see what he would have said.
Even then occasionally he has come up with what I have said.
But how can you ask him when it says which of these answers is the correct one, when that is the type of question that comes up.
You cannot put all of that gumph in can you. ??
I wouldn't know how to.🤔🤔

I suspect many people like me take it too seriously !!! But I dont cheat until I get a pink dash - just to see what they reckon the answer is

Tell me about it! It is a bit like golf (a detestable way of wasting time with rather too much prowess associated with it).

You can cheat but who is it you are cheating? My magenta dashes represent wrong answers but also ones I would contest!

But as there are more posts on this thread than any other it seems to work!
Roy

I am sure the alogarithim used for the right or wrong decission does not get it right all the time either. My background does not involve merchant ships so really I do not have a clue about cargo loading or crew regulations and certification, I try to answer the questions by what it is not and deduction but as you can see it hard for me to get above number 4 on the ladder which makes me believe that some people do look the answer you before answering

Up to now No. I am being good.
I am resisting the urge to go to MR GOOGLE.
I had used that in the past and he has steered wrongly.
So now I am trying to guess is and up to now been dead lucky.
I am really waiting as I know I am definitely going to blow it very soon.
11 days now this is going way too well so it is going to go badly very soon.

Boatshed is that with the help of Mr Google before answering the question ??? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

😁😁WHOOPEEE!!, I have actually made it to ten in a row.
“You cannot be serious" in the word's of the great John McEnroe.
Well I wonder how much longer it will take me to get the next one wrong.
I cannot be long, surely.
It's been a long time since I have been this Lucky. 🤣🤣

Think we have had this before 🤔

Wow, nine in a row now.
I am probably speaking too early now.
I bet I will now blow it tomorrow and get tomorrows question wrong.
that will be another red mark.👎
I will see what tomorrow brings.🤞

Hi all after I answered the QoD I looked up Internet for Naval tactics and here is a quote from one article.
Roy

The leeward enemy, if unwilling to fight, could sail downwind away from the pending fight. Thus, the weather gage did not give unilateral control over the time of the battle

Judging from the appearance of magenta dashes I am not alone in disagreeing.
Roy

I am sure we have had the same question with different answers before.
One good answer it limited the enemy from opening its lower gun ports so Leeward was good.
Also you can bare away from the enemy with the wind behind you if you wish to decline combat.
Personally I go back to "rubish in = rubish out"

A.I. again!
Roy

Well once more, just as I was getting rid of my RED mark when I guessed the wrong answer. Back to another 30 days of waiting. 🤣

I am not sure that the answer fits the question. Surely it is not of "tactical significance" but of just of "significance" If it was tactical they wouldn't choose the leeward side they would go for the windward or weather gage.

A sort of lucky guess as Ai did't say tactical advantage!!🙄 Just picked the one that seemed the most feasible 👍 And we have had a similar question a while ago when the answer was about being able to fire more of it's cannons at the enemy ship !! which this time was'nt one of the answers.😠

Aggggghhhhhhh!

Oh no, another wrong answer and 30 days to get them corrected 😕

Hi Ed I agree we need a new thread. A week ago I was typing on this one but decided that Props and propellers needed a separate thread.

This QoD one is enormous compared with the others and should be thinned out a bit.
Roy

So my assumtion was correct :-)

I think the power problems on the type 45 were turbocharger related. As I understand it, MOD did not want to use the recommended turbochargers and opted for cheaper ones. The remedial work was carried out in my local yard, Camel Lairds and involved chopping an enormous hole in the side so they could shimmy another diesel generator in to provide the extra power required to run AC, and ops room and operate at full ahead. More MOD false economy....

I am not sure if the T45 problems were design problems or caused by cost cutting by Civil Servants and manufacturers amending the origional specifications - I was not suficiently high enough up the food chain to be told such things

Let hope the same does not happen with the latest ships being built currently

Pat
I know that the Type 45 had major design faults with electrical gear.
The company that I worked for built some of the equipment for the refits

😊

Another scenario often conducted on BOST and COST is how would you fight a ship reliant on AI if all electric power is lost !
A situation that happened often in the Type 45 until the power system was modified - which involved a major refit

Say what you like the final decision to fire must be in the hands of the Captain of the ship - remember the Royal Navy shooting down the Comet and the case of Stanislav Petrov in 1983

In the case of strategic weapons the command to fire must be given by two people after instructions from the political lead through the commander in chief

That is not to say he cannot use input from other means but every ship I have ever been on needs the words “Command Approved” to fire any weapons

We should make this a new thread as we are getting an interesting set of views on this topic

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is increasingly being integrated into Close-In Weapon Systems (CIWS) to enhance their speed, accuracy, and autonomy in detecting and neutralizing fast-moving threats like missiles, drones, and aircraft. Here's how AI is used in CIWS:

1. Target Detection and Tracking
AI-powered sensors and radar systems use machine learning algorithms to distinguish between actual threats (e.g., missiles) and non-threats (e.g., birds or debris).
Neural networks can be trained to recognize the radar or infrared signatures of different objects.
AI helps in reducing false positives and improving threat classification in complex environments.

2. Threat Prioritization
AI systems analyze the trajectory, speed, and proximity of multiple incoming targets.
They assign threat levels and prioritize which targets should be engaged first.
This is especially critical when under saturation attacks (multiple incoming threats at once).

3. Fire Control and Engagement
AI aids in real-time targeting decisions, calculating optimal firing solutions.
It adjusts for target movement, system latency, environmental conditions (like wind), and platform motion (especially on ships).
Autonomous engagement capability is sometimes enabled, allowing the system to fire without human input in critical time windows.

4. Sensor Fusion
AI integrates inputs from radar, infrared, optical, and even acoustic sensors to build a more accurate picture of the threat environment.
Sensor fusion enhances decision-making and compensates for weaknesses in individual sensors (e.g., radar being jammed).

5. Counter-UAS (Unmanned Aerial Systems) Capability
Modern CIWS platforms face threats from swarms of drones.
AI algorithms detect swarm behavior and coordinate responses, such as adjusting firing patterns or prioritizing the swarm's lead elements.

6. Simulation and Training
AI-driven virtual environments simulate various attack scenarios for training purposes.
They can create adaptive threats that learn from the defender's behavior, enhancing preparedness.

7. Maintenance and Diagnostics
AI monitors the health of the CIWS through predictive maintenance.
It analyzes usage patterns, wear data, and sensor feedback to predict component failures before they happen.

Example: AI in Specific Systems

Phalanx CIWS (US Navy): Newer versions incorporate improved targeting algorithms that benefit from AI/machine learning for faster threat assessment.

SeaRAM: Combines CIWS with Rolling Airframe Missiles; AI helps select between gun or missile engagement depending on the threat type.

Russia's Pantsir system and China's Type 730/1130 CIWS are also believed to integrate AI for target identification and fire control.

AI is already been used in defence systems

Look at this report

https://iotworldmagazine.com/2024/09/16/2448/15-examples-of-ai-in-the-military-and-defence-sector-industry-in-london-uk-europe-and-the-usa-2024-2025

For anyone else, like myself who hasn,t a clue what Pat is talking about when he mentioned CIWS I looked it up and guess what , this is Ai's view-😁🙄.
AI Overview-
In the context of armaments, CIWS stands for Close-In Weapon System. It's a type of automated, naval defense system designed to destroy short-range incoming missiles and enemy aircraft that have penetrated outer defenses. CIWS acts as a last line of defense, typically mounted on naval ships.
Here's a more detailed explanation:

Purpose:
CIWS is designed to intercept and destroy threats that have bypassed other layers of defense, such as anti-ship missiles (AShMs), enemy aircraft, and even small surface threats.

How it works:
CIWS systems typically combine radar, computers, and a rapid-firing gun (often a Gatling gun) or missiles. The system automatically detects, tracks, and engages targets, providing a rapid and highly automated response.
Examples:
Popular CIWS systems include the Raytheon Phalanx CIWS (often called the "Sea-Wiz" or "R2-D2 with an erection") and the Goalkeeper CIWS. The Phalanx uses a 20mm Gatling gun, while the Goalkeeper uses a 30mm Gatling gun.
So there you, and I have it !!. You can't knock Ai all the time😁😁......I'm off to bed ..

Well done Roy - Lets hope it gets better with the latest SDR - I have this feeling we are going to need more and better people and equipment soon!

Hi Pat very interesting to have direct information always interesting. Although I am dove rather than hawk I am very interested in defence equipment and how successful it is.

regards
Roy

Hi Roy

Most of what you saying is totally correct, however, the gun you are talking about in the UK is called a Phalanx and in the US is called a CWIS. The point I was making is that these are not controlled by AI. The radar does indeed use computers to track the incoming object (It would be very difficult if not imossible for a human to track at the speeds involved) and when at a range of about 1 mile the operators have to decide to shoot - 3000 rounds per minute which totally smashes the target to bits.

The first longer legged defence againt an incoming missile was the Seawolf missle again a computer assisted weapon that was tested shooting 4.5 inch projectiles out of the sky.

In 1991 long before AI HMS Gloucester shot down a Silkworm Missile in the war in the Persian Gulf using her Seadart missle (primary a anti aircraft missle) - the Silkworm was targeting the USS Missouri, detected by a 17 year old that got commended by the Commander in Chief.

Modern improvements have made close range destruction of incoming dangers such as drones even more accurate but as yet AI is not used and the final decisiion to fire is the Captians of the ship normally under the control of the PWO(A).

This is a well practised scenario when ships go through BOST and COST under FOST - once based in Portland but since the 90's at Devonport.

PWO(A)'s in their qualifying course take part in live firings shooting down targets normally off Gibraltar and usually due to the expence using guns rather than missiles.

The common air defence system in use at the moment is the Sea Viper missile system using the Aster missle system which come in two varieties the Aster 15 and the Aster 30. The Sea Cepter mislle system in slowly being introduced on the Type 45 Destroyers and the later Type 23 Frigates.

The Royal Navy has been very wary about taking the control of offensive missle since they accidentally shot down a De Havilland Comet off the Aberporth range in Wales in the late 60's early 70's I cant remember the exact date.

Hi Pat your question at the end would be dealt with automatically using a Gatling gun pouring a wall of lead into the missile to disrupt its mechanism and driven by computer controlled radar. One minute of travel time would be ample time for guns to move, lock on and fire. I suspect you would not need A.I. to do this.

We have had radar controlled guns since 1944 and combined with proximity controlled shells all on automatic. On several occasions when GB was being attacked by the V1 missiles in June/July 1944 the radar controlled guns took out over 90% of in-coming missiles.

The system was developed and shipped over here by the Americans. Also at this time the famous Chain Home defence radar system was virtually displaced by a single very large radar system again from the USA. The CH system only worked 'outwards' and did not detect anything coming up behnd it.
Most of this was enabled because of the trip from UK to USA of the Tizzard committee, who laid bare all our secrets but said we do not have the man power to develop them. This included proximity shells, jet engine technnology and the magnetron.

Did you know that the Chain Home radar system involving I think 29 units was linked to the National Grid to ensure synchronisation? This is our 50 hertz system. In the main the radar would transmit a pulse then wait for the echo and then repeat. With 50 hertz frequency anyone listening in would have heard a pulse every 25 hertz.

This is what General Martini heard when an Airship prior to WW2 was fitted out to check if the UK had any radar. It was regarded as so crude (which it was) as not to constitute a problem. After the war in 1950 he was told his airship was tracked the entire route it took and he did not believe it.

When the airship was first seen Professor Lindemand's aid Reginald Jones was asked if they should stop transmitting, his response was No! So the Chain Home system was ignored by German Intelligence, hidden in plain sight.

Our first radio controlled units for models ran at much the same frequency, 27 Mhtz as against 30 Mhtz for the CH radar. They also used Amplitude modulation of the 27Mhertz carrier.
The servos are updated for position every 50Hertz. This is a 20msec long pulse divided into 10 spots of 2msec. A servo is allotted one of these positions and waits for any change on the transmitter stick each stick has a 2msec slot delivering a 1 to 2 msec pulse (Neutral is 1.5msec).

The esc's at the time used this frequency to rate the M/S ratio, although now many esc's have an oscillator running at 2KHertz for finer control of the motor which is also what you hear with the whine.

Roy

Hi Roy

That part you just wrote about AI is very good and so true, what the world needs to realise is that computers are a tool to be used and their answer should be checked and double checked.

I have used, worked with and managed IT Systems all my working life after serving, some systems are better than other some quite frankly are p poor but that is life these days.

The problem is people take technolgy as being 100% right 100% of the time which it is not, just like some believe Google always gives the right answer.

Here is a question for you - you are on the bridge of a Warship - the reports come through that a missle is heading for your ship at approx 600MPH and is 10 miles away the crew on the ship is 200 persons, would you trust AI to defend the ship? I have no doubt it will happen but not yet.

The human brain is much better than any computer.


My two penneth


Pat

Hi Ed technology is getting very complex and integrating into one whole is very impressive. I am sure you left all the necessary personnel needed to run and update for the future.
My lad got involved with the local hospital group using the o/p from the MRI scanner writing a program to enable easier resolution of cancer cells (which are very similar to brown fat) on their scanner in Gosford, Australia.

It was all agreed with the MRI manufacturers but I would wonder how it fits in with the future as far as s/w upgrades and problem solving. When I was a computer engineer we were just starting to have diagnostic s/w in some computers and peripherals.

The biggest shock for me anyway was walking into an unkown site, on shift, where the computer was giving incorrect answers to do with renovations on a Thames bridge.

It was using an attached Floating Point arithmetic box, (called an extended mathmatical unit, or EMU). This was in 1971. The resident engineer left instructions to read and use a manual, but not to touch anything else! We did as instructed pressed an unexpected button and 22 lines of numbers and letters was printed out.
We had to type in several responses to questions and were then instructed to change a particular PCB. I did this and the system was re-started and it all worked correctly.
I looked at my assistant and thought 'the writing is on the wall'! This is the end of the old computer engineer job, time to go. By the following year I was managing my own group of 20 engineers and watched as the self diagnosis of errors worked its way through as new peripherals became available.

That was over 50 years ago, the main frames have gone, although we can all access distant servers when needed. But I am told all this technology we have at our finger tips is mainly involved with Social Media, gaming and porn. Ever thus, how tech serves the people in the end.

I suspect A.I. will eventually go the way the public are willing to pay for it. Predicting it and offering a product will be a very big earner for someone.

Regards
Roy

Hi Ed, I am in total agreement with your last paragraph, that says it all.
Roy

Hi Roy and Ed
Very impressive. Know I know why I am so bad at scoring
😊

Hi Roy
I worked at the AMIIC at John Radcliffe Hospital.
I designed and implemented the computer systems to work with the new scanner.

https://www.rdm.ox.ac.uk/about/our-facilities-and-units/acute-multidisciplinary-imaging-and-interventional-centre/about-amiic

Hello Ed perhaps you know my son in law as he is a Program director at Oxford Uni for masters degree courses and recently higher levels. My son (a Phd in computer science) was tutored by the current government 'think tank' Chairperson on A.I. I am probably in your sights as well.

My son also swears by A.I. but that means it is the current go to for problems. But he often asks me how he should go about doing some things! From my part, I used to sort out problems that outside companies had with running their own computer departments.

Too much reliance can be placed on the current technical advances and not enough time on their outcomes. Where ever there is complex (at the time) technical expertise on the way up then it is too easy to base decisions on it.

Remember there are always 4 answers to a test or recommendation. Positive, negative, false positive and false negative. In my book any test or computer based enquiry is 50% accurate. Probably requiring more information to refine the answer.

It takes an all round review by a qualified person to decide whether reliance can be placed on a solution. I used to employ young students for a year as part of their computer course requirements. I met a fair cross section of the populace, obviously more centred at the high end of the IQ.

Some of it was worrying, I had a very well qualified lad who had problems with females especially someone telling what to do. His actions forced me to ask him in conjunction with his tutor to find other work. When asked to give a reference to the Police for employment, I declined to write anything but offered myself to be interviewed over the phone by a Police person (female). I do not know the outcome.

Another very nice lad was an inveterate gambler and could not be trusted. No part of the interview process can account for that. We took him in hand but as soon as he was on his own he was back to what he was.

Having seen that it still comes down to people to decide how the information will or should be used. We have seen the generation of false information and I do read of the many times that A.I. has generated its own false assumptions and information.

We must therefore make use of the technology and make sure the input information is verified as correct and logical and monitor the output information.

Blindly following A.I. results which could have had biased information to work on is too much of a danger these days, as we have seen from the way some politicians have come to the fore.

With current people seeking work they often get help from A.I. generated CV's. Now employers know this and have to take it into account, I believe statistically 70% of jobs are filled from personal reference or contact.

So I do agree that there is a use for A.I. but supervision is also needed which is why there are queries about the veracity of some answers and frequent repetition of questions on this thread.

I do enjoy the banter and repartee and I suspect most of our members are probably retired or close to it. We have seen life as it is, worked with it and around it. We have worked amicably with those with perhaps conflicting views and for my part dug out gems from the most unexpected sources.

Regards
Roy

If this post offends some people, so be it.
I am sick of hearing people moaning about AI when they have no Idea what it is or it's capabilities

AI" stands for Artificial Intelligence. It is a field of computer science focused on creating machines that can perform tasks that typically require human intelligence, such as learning, problem-solving, and decision-making. AI systems use algorithms to process data and make predictions, enabling them to adapt to new inputs and improve their performance over time.

The process starts with development of "deep learning" algorithms that process vast amounts of data and create a basis for decisions. The longer the process runs, the better the decisions become.

Most of my career was in Information systems and the last 25 years in senior IT management.
After retiring I was approached to head up IT for a world leading Cardiac Research company. They were an offshoot of Oxford University. This company use AI to analyse CT scans to predict future Cardiac problems. I was also involved in Cardiac research at Oxford University where new deep learning is shaping medical diagnosis and decision making.

The results produced by AI are analyzed by top professionals in the medical field and they fully endorse the results

Nick, I'm waiting for these answers too, thank you very much.
That it's not mentioned on page 64 is easy to see in a few seconds.

SimpleSailor is exactly what I'm talking about.
RT isn't there, or it means something completely different.
DW is there and is consistent with a safe path.

Oh dear I am still stuck at position 4 - but then again - I don’t consult until after I have made my choice as that would be cheating !

Just for the record I could not find it in NP5011 - I did spend a while looking.

Also I wonder how many people these day actually use paper charts anymore- I know the Hydrographic office stopped producing them a couple of years ago except for special order

Will be interesting if our American Cousins ever turn the GPS system off in time of war - guess it will be back to first principals

I am not sure if Celestial Navigation is taught on the PWO(N) - course anymore - I must consult with a onetime colleagues that used to do the sea riding bit on that course